The Colonel's Corner Safe for Democracy Part 23 (24)

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0:01 I love that song. I'm just saying it one more time. Me too. Me too. Yes. Yes. It just gets me fired up every time I hear it. Right. Okay. So I have some really fun news. So I met a guy.

0:28 I think he pronounces his name Hakeem. He's an American. He's living in Serbia. And Tommy, yesterday, last minute, asked me if I could do a podcast with him because he had just been on Tommy's podcast with someone else and mentioned the Albert Einstein Institute. And of course, I've mentioned that several times to Tommy. So he makes a note saying, Hakeem needs to meet Colonel Watkins.

0:59 So he just sent me a text yesterday and says, hey, can you come on today with them? And so whenever he puts the podcast out there, I'll put it on. But you guys are going to love it. So we start talking. And for the first time in all of these podcasts that I've done with Tommy, his entire freaking internet goes down. Not once, but twice. Like just.

1:28 completely cut off service. And he comes back and he goes, I don't know what happened. I said, well, it happens everywhere I go for some odd reason. But anyway, so I asked him before we started the show, you know, a little bit about him. So I kind of know where to focus the information.

1:51 And he said, well, I'm an American. I grew up in, where's all along? Is he here? He's gonna be pissed off. He missed this part. But this guy grew up kind of as what most people would refer to as a liberal. He was involved in the SEIU union and whatever. But inside of it,

2:15 he realized something was going on. And so he started doing research and kind of figured out what we figured out. And he went over as part of some effort, and I'm not sure how it all unfolded because I don't, obviously I only spoke with him for a few minutes, but he ends up in Serbia in the aftermath of their coup orchestrated.

2:40 by the Albert Einstein Institute and has been going all over Eastern Europe where these people keep trying this shit as a consultant on how to recognize it and prevent it. And I said, you mean you're making money doing this shit? And he started laughing. I'm like, who knew? You mean I could go live in Eastern Europe and guard against the...

3:09 International syndicate trying to overthrow and actually make money? Okay. Sign me up. But anyway, I thought it was hilarious. That is hysterical. My God. And not surprising that he had issues with his connectivity. I mean, how many times does that happen? Well, every time I go on a podcast, but generally for the host, it's usually their first time experiencing any weirdness.

3:37 We experience weirdness all the time. So anyway. Well, when you have two heavy hitters show up, Colonel, I think they're going to do something about it. Yeah. But such an interesting conversation. I have to say, I think it's my favorite Tommy podcast yet. It was just so fun talking to somebody that has done.

4:03 a lot of the similar research. I don't think he's as steeped in the stay behind aspect of it, but he certainly knows how the whole game is played. Just absolutely amazing. Okay, so we're gonna get started where we left off yesterday and finish up our Bay of Pigs fiasco. And I do have a six o'clock other show.

4:33 And I want to save a little bit of time because I came across some information I'm going to throw out in case you guys want to do a little bit more research on your own. Because normally when I do additional kind of in-depth segues into material that we're looking at, like the JFK.

4:56 assassination. And obviously that's coming up in the book. So just kind of working ahead. Normally, I just find bunches of stuff and kind of categorize them in my notes. I just copy and paste links and stuff like that in my notes. And it's kind of brain draining just because of the magnitude of what we're talking about. But generally, it's not that big of a deal at this point. Yesterday,

5:27 I stumbled across a name that I had not seen before and I got like stuck in quicksand. It was like every single thing I touched was like, oh God, that's gonna suck me in. Oh God, that's gonna suck me in. It was crazy. And I just wanna throw out generalities at the end of the show today.

5:53 and a couple of names so that you guys can help with that piece of it. So remind me to do that, Bridget, please. Okay. Oh, and Illini, you're going to definitely want to watch the Tommy podcast show because this guy, we had a whole conversation about Salvador Allende in Chile. But anyway, it was a very interesting show. Okay.

6:24 So the Presidential Intelligence Board submitted many recommendations in 1961, some of them on covert operations from the board's own Bay of Pigs post-mortem. Among these were advice that the CIA increase its intelligence work and de-emphasize covert action. We've only heard that several times. Devise a means of eliminating

6:50 low potential programs, consider moving covert operations outside of the activity, and consider relocating the Directorate of Operations even outside of Washington, D.C. Oh, maybe New York. Yeah, let's put covert operations in Wall Street. What the hell, stupid people.

7:15 90% of the Intelligence Advisory Board recommendations said to have been affected. Of course, the most significant were not. Meanwhile, investigation of the Bay of Pigs also proceeded along in the CIA itself. Just after two years earlier, responding to criticism of the Directorate of Operations about the Hall Board had offered President Eisenhower, Dulles had ended.

7:44 the DO role in reviewing its own covert operations. Who would ever do that? They assigned that function to the CIA IG, who, by the way, is just a defunct agent anyway. It's not like it's an independent review. Now the IG took a look at the Bay of Pigs, the first major review under this new system. IG Lyman.

8:11 Kirkpatrick with his staff of about a dozen investigators assembled a detailed picture of the CIA side of the affair. Studying the paper trail and talking to more than 125 people, the investigators touched the points made by the...

8:29 Taylor panel, but went far beyond it in terms of criticizing the Secret Warriors' assumptions about Castro's vulnerability, arrangements for equipment and training, and changes in the planning, the operational security, and the management of the JMATE. Stung by Kirkpatrick's powerful arguments, the DO officer struck back with claims that Kirkpatrick had been motivated by personal reasons.

8:58 animosity for Bissell after having been passed over for the job himself. His report was then characterized as a hatchet job. Even college friend Tom Parrott took that view. Richard Bissell raised the issue himself in a 1987 interview, or 67 interview. The then IG was known to be, to I think everyone who knew him,

9:30 extremely ambitious. He was an individual who, as I felt well before this incident, was not above using his reports and his analysis of situations to exert an influence in the direction that he chose. And these directions were, not always, but sometimes, tied up in his personal ambitions. I think in this case, he had a number of purposes he was trying to serve.

9:57 more or less of that character, which is ridiculous. This is the guy that was injured. He's in a wheelchair. He knows his career's over, which is why he was put in the IG position to begin with. Does he have animus because of his injury? Possibly. Were the stuff true or not true? None of the criticism about his report had anything to do with the report.

10:29 We attack him because we can't attack the information. In a wheelchair, he had contracted polio on duty for the agency and then had been assigned the IG job. Dark gossip attended the preparation of the IG report, but uproar followed its October 1961 completion.

11:00 By then, a new director held the reins at the CIA. Despite the direct relationship between the mess and his own appointment, John McComb gave Kirkpatrick's report short shrift. Then the IG presented it on November 20th. He met Kirkpatrick and remarked that the report gave a false picture, suggesting that the CIA alone had responsibility for the failure.

11:27 Then he arranged for the IG to supply an additional memo pointing a finger at the U.S. government, meaning the Kennedy administration, where the IG's original report did not point. McCone also promised the DO that a rejoinder would be bound together with the report and that he needed Bissell more than once on the DO's progress in compiling the response.

11:55 largely the work of Tracy Barnes, and practically as long as the IG report itself, that paper went to the director on January 18, 1962. Denunciations of the report was also filed separately by Alan Dulles, by Richard Bissell, and by Charles Cabell. By Barnes, in addition to his work on the DO response paper,

12:25 and by three Cuba task force officers. All these circulated with Kirkpatrick's report. Then Director McCone had the copies collected. McCone had all saved, one destroyed. Years later, in his memoirs, Richard Bissell reconsidered his view of the Kirkpatrick report. The IG's conclusion that the Cuba project had been inadequately staffed

12:55 the former deputy director now termed probably correct. As for Kirkpatrick's critique of the decision process, Bissell now wrote that, quote, much of his characterization was fair, but I have never felt that inadequate paperwork or staffing had much to do with whatever misconceptions arose.

13:19 The shortcomings of our procedure were mainly attributable to keeping the circle of knowledgeable participants as small as possible. I will say, however, that I found our procedures refreshing in contrast to the stuffy discussions and negotiations that went on among the National Security Council staff members during the Eisenhower years. In other words, they weren't given a blank check.

13:49 under JFK like they had been under Eisenhower. That was stuffy. Stuffy discussions and negotiations when you're talking about killing people. Imagine that. Richard Helms, who had a better opinion of Lyman Kirkpatrick's critique, also sided with McCone in holding the Kennedy people responsible for sloppy decisions, even while he noted the project could have not...

14:19 could not have succeeded on its own terms. So it's Kennedy's fault, even though it was a bad plan from the start and could not be successful. But that's Kennedy's fault too. Absolutely crazy. There is no question that the Cuba debacle stripped away the CIA's luster, especially that of the director of operations.

14:51 Although the CIA might not have looked so bad in the Taylor report, Kennedy had considered Alan Dulles a master spy and a political asset, and now he did not. At lunch with author Schlesinger and James Reston during the last days of Project ATE, the president remarked, Dulles is a legendary figure and it's hard to work with legendary figures. He kept.

15:18 Allen on until the completion of the new CIA headquarters building in Langley, the construction of which had been one of Dulles' great dreams. And then he pulled the rug out and fired him so that he never got to be in the building officially. Director Dulles retired to write a book, The Craft of Intelligence, in which the passage explaining the Bay of Pigs contained barely a few lines. Later, he reacted angrily.

15:48 to publication of the Schlesinger and Theodore Sorensen's memoirs on Kennedy. With their description of the president's concerns about the CIA plans, Dulles wrote drafts of a reply, hundreds of pages, but never published. The rebuttal shows that the CIA officer consciously abetted Kennedy's ignorance in the expectation

16:16 that when the chips were down, JFK would go along with the agency's need to engage the military to save the exiles. Without the pressures of defending current programs, the former CIA director admitted to failing to ensure that Kennedy understood that air cover had become an absolute prerequisite for success,

16:46 fail to protest repeated orders to reduce the noise level of the operation. So as to avoid hardening the president's leanings against it. Dulles, who rejected Kirkpatrick's IG report, accepts its key criticisms in his drafts. His successor, John McComb, would have added one more in a 1986 McComb told Dick Bissell.

17:15 that a big mistake had been Dulles' absence from the scene. Going to Puerto Rico created a problem. Among smaller fry, Grayston Lynch, in 1998 memoir, published a fierce diatribe aimed primarily at Schlesinger, Sorensen, and the journalist Haynes Johnson. In common with a number of CIA veterans, Lynch sees in those accounts the same

17:46 whitewash as the Taylor Report. The on-scene CIA officer, Lynch, defends the fighters in Brigade 2506 and places the responsibility squarely on Kennedy's shoulders. Lynch has certain details wrong. For example, Bissell, not JFK, had the initial strikes against Castro's air bases, though based on understanding

18:14 The president wanted less noise. There was not, at least in Washington's counsel, a plan for a campaign of five or more major strikes before the invasion. It was true that internal uprisings held a significant role in the CIA's concept. Castro did not mistake the US deception for the fake front.

18:46 and therefore he was there to meet the real invasion because they had tried. Remember the submarine guy was going to go to the opposite end of the island. They didn't fall for it. So everything about the CIA plan failed, but it's all Kennedy's fault. But his core argument is that if the brigade had ruled the air, the operation would have ended with a downfall of Fidel Castro.

19:15 Agency Deputy Director Charles Cabell makes the same argument. It's 100% speculation. 100%. They have no clue. At best, the CIA's Air Force might have denied Castro's forces entry into Garon area. More likely, it could have done no more than make the FAR assault slower and costlier.

19:44 Brigade 2506 would still have had to get out through a far superior Cuban army, which the terrain would have had favored just as it did to help in an exile defense, which is what they thought it was going to do, except they didn't occupy the high ground. That's kind of 101 land war.

20:14 A completely hidden obstacle would have been a species of crab native to Garonne. Thousands of crabs crushed while crossing the road. Their razor-sharp shells, often covering roads several feet deep, would have sliced the tires of the brigade's vehicles. Beyond the beachhead, victory would have still required the Cuban people to change sides.

20:44 Lynch and Cabell's contention is representative of a view held by participants ranging from Jack Hawkins to exile pilot Eddie Farrow to observers like John McComb. But bombers were not about to conquer Havana. Air superiority was necessary for success, but it was not a guarantee of victory.

21:12 Aircraft, certainly not in the types and numbers that was available to the CIA, could not have destroyed Castro's army. Meanwhile, the internal resistance, weak and far away, like literally on the other side of the island, had no chance to link up with any of the brigade. The Cuban people were they understand what truly were their numbers. Any of the failures would have wrecked this plan.

21:42 While every single element had to go right for it to have even had a remote chance of success. The CIA's project had been marginal at best from the beginning. Dwight Eisenhower and the agency share the blame for that. Richard Bissell had been considered the leading candidate to succeed Dulles. Instead, his star went into eclipse.

22:13 Kennedy famously told him that if America had had a parliamentary government, he, the president, would resign. But given the presidential system, Bissell had to go instead. McCone came on board to replace Dulles in November of 61, and then Bissell resigned. Shortly thereafter, McCone's first wife died.

22:40 and the new director felt he needed some stability. He phoned Bissell from California, where McCone attended the funeral, and asked the DO to stay until he returned. In early 1962, with the president's blessing, Bobby Kennedy met with Bissell and said he and McCone wanted the secret warrior to go back to dealing in his strong suit, starting up a new directorate of research.

23:09 doing science and technology that the agency was about to create. Bissell declined. He left instead to head a think tank. Of course, that's what all CIA guys do. The Institute of Defense Analysis in Alexandria, Virginia. There was no farewell party or ceremonies. Tracy Barnes' career flamed out too. Gossip about the botched briefing of Stevenson spread throughout the agency.

23:40 infuriating Barnes, who felt that he had not lied and that the UN ambassador could have asked questions. Lie by admission. The atmosphere soured so much that a few months later, a junior officer had no compassion about standing up in a staff meeting Barnes conducted to declare that it would be really helpful

24:11 Dio, Bissell, and John Brose all walked the plank in his staff meeting. His subordinate said that. The staffer was shunted to a job at the Pentagon, but Barnes moved over to become division chief of a newly established domestic operations division. E. Howard Hunt became a subordinate. So Barnes, the guy that should have been fired for the Bay of Pigs,

24:43 is moved to do the CIA shit in the United States. Rest assured, everything's fine. Holy crap. So what that tells me is Barnes was moved over to begin the planning for the assassination of JFK. General Charles Cabell returned to the Air Force in December 1961. John's bros, like Helms, held little regard for Tracy Barnes' tradecraft and his loyalties ran to Bissell.

25:15 Lyman Kirkpatrick, removed as inspector general because he told the truth, became the CIA's executive director, another of McCone's new post, but found the job not to his liking. So he left in 1964 to become an academic. Robert Emery departed the agency for the White House in 1962.

25:43 Becoming head of the International Division of the Bureau of Budget, which is where the CIA gets all of their money, Dick Drain tried to get as far away from it as he could and went to Nairobi as the chief of station. Later, he turned up in Saigon at the height of Vietnam War, serving as the deputy chief of the largest CIA station in the world.

26:16 careers appeared unaffected, but in the long run, sputtered out. Gar Thorsrug shifted to one of the proprietaries and worked out of a disguised CIA airbase in Marana, Arizona. Isn't that where Evergreen is? I'm pretty sure it is. He retired in the mid-1960s. Gary Droler was promoted to Special Assistance of Political Action.

26:47 for the White House division while Jake Esterling became the chief of operations. They soon had their hands back in the Guyana affair. That's interesting. Esterling received only a couple more pro forma promotions during his career and ended up as the chief of base in Miami at the time of Watergate when they were running the Cuban exiles as part of Watergate.

27:19 How cool. The Miami Post embroiled Esterling in hot water again because of the CIA Cubans scandal in Watergate. Esterling retired in mid-1973. By and large, however, the Bay of Pigs proved to be more benign for CIA personnel than participation in later agency muck-ups. Only a few dozen officers retired.

27:50 Fewer cashiered, no one went to jail. No one ever goes to jail. Kennedy kept the CIA at arm's length. Langley became more than a headquarters complex across the Potomac River. It was shorthand for the Alliance of Secret Warriors the president viewed wearily. JFK told aides of his desire to splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces.

28:20 and scatter it to the wind but of course that didn't happen chapter 13 the cold war and counter revolutions no they were actually revolutions the notorious cuban project had a crossover operation a cia covert action begun under one president and continued by another there were lots more tibet of course another tragic page in the history of

28:53 Africa took place in Zaire, formerly the Congo. With the arrival of independence, this American operation occurred against a backdrop of intense political strife and Belgium's residual colonial ambitions. Trouble swiftly followed Independence Day, June 30, 1960. The Belgians had done as little as possible to prepare the Congolese for...

29:23 independence. For example, there were a mere 13, 13 college graduates and no African officers in the entire Congolese army, because it was actually the Belgian army, just named the Congolese army. The basic strategy conceded independence, but ensured that the Belgians

29:54 would continue to operate all Congolese institutions. The Belgian commander of the Congolese army, General Emil Janssen, hammered home the point at a meeting with the African soldiers where he wrote on a blackboard, Avant independence equals something independence. It translates into the colonial relationship would endure. In other words, we're not going anywhere.

30:25 We just did a bunch of pictures and pretended to grant you your independence. We're still in charge. After just five days, the Congolese army revolted against their Belgian officers. 90 miles from the capital, there at Camp Hardy, a main base of the army, the Force Publique, the Belgians were locked up.

30:52 Frantic stories of rapes, looting, and unrest in army units in Elizabethville and the capital, Leopoldville, sparked concern. A day of panic in Leopoldville occurred on July 8th. Both the British and the French embassies evacuated some personnel. Several thousand Europeans fled across the Congo River to Brazzaville in the Congo Republic.

31:21 Then rebel-armed boats blocked the river. The revolt naturally triggered a response by the infant government. Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba attempted to restore order. He dismissed General Janssen, then all Belgian officers, more than 1,100 of them, promoting native soldiers to replace them. Lumumba's chief of the Movement National Congolese,

31:51 was a young radical, a charismatic black of Pan-African sentiment and one of Congo's few college graduates. In May of 1960 elections, Lumumba's party had won 35 seats to become the largest in the parliament and the only one with deputies elected from most provinces. The Belgians preferred to avoid Lumumba.

32:19 But the government inevitably coalesced around his party. While the popular Lumumba had a following, the army revolt allowed the Belgians to present his government as ineffective and to intervene with Belgian paratroops on July 10th to restore the order. The order was already restored, primarily.

32:45 once they got rid of the people that were actually causing the problems, which were the Belgium troops. They were instigating it. In various attempts to obtain countervailing assistance, Lumumba and Congolese President Joseph Kassavubu appealed to the UN protection. The cabinet asked for American help and Lumumba requested Soviet assistance. The UN and

33:15 Eisenhower's support passed a resolution to assist the Congo. The UN security forces, that would eventually amount to 19,000 troops from 30 different European, Asian, and African nations deployed to the Congo. The maneuvers for foreign support drew the US and the Soviet Union into a local situation, in effect, bringing the Cold War to Africa. Washington had, and by the way,

33:43 Other authors do not say this happened simultaneously. Lumamba came to the U.S. first and tried to work with the U.S. government and only as a last resort went to the Soviet Union. So this guy is presenting him as happening simultaneously. I've not found that out reported anywhere in any of the research that I've done. Anyway.

34:13 The U.S. Embassy in Leopoldville obtained the overwhelming majority of its information, 90%, from Belgium sources. In other words, they weren't even doing actual intelligence. They were just being fed shit by Belgium. They protected their own interest. Americans relied upon the Belgium, and no one at the embassy spoke the local language.

34:42 So they couldn't even talk to him to get intelligence from him to begin with. You want to talk about arrogant? There you go. Lawrence Devlin, the CIA's station chief in Leopoldville, is a case in point. On the day of independence, living with his wife in Paris, Devlin knew little of the Congo. For a time, he had been assigned to Brussels. Introduced to a few of the people involved,

35:15 According to one source, Devlin met Joseph Mubato, who they'll eventually replace Lumumba with, when that gentleman worked in Brussels as a press spokesperson. Mubato is a bought and paid for stooge. He spoke French, and that was it. Headquarters ordered Devlin to the Congo by fastest means available. He arrived in Leopoldville.

35:45 to be detained by the Congolese soldiers who handed the CIA man a pistol and made him play Russian roulette for their amusement. That scene became Devlin's initiation to the Congo. The CIA station, non-existent at first, was then fashioned from personnel pulled from wherever. By September, the station chief had just three case officers, all temporary duty, one from the Middle East.

36:13 another from the Far East Division. Similarly, the CIA base at Elizabethville, today, Lumambusky, had just one officer, John Anderson, plus a comm man. Much too senior, Anderson had headed large CIA stations and just returned from a long tour in the Far East.

36:43 Eisenhower had taken Allen Dulles' side at a cocktail party and asked him if he had someone at Elizabethville. He did not. Allen told Eisenhower he did. The CIA had to cover Dulles' ass and Anderson had been assigned simply because he was available and spoke French. They had no networks and no agents. Washington did not like Lumumba.

37:12 and encouraged opposition, especially from the more moderate President Kassavubu. American diplomats in Leopoldville reported negatively on Lumumba's initiatives. Gosh, I wonder why. Policy hardened rapidly over Devlin's cables on August 18th that both the embassy and his station believed the Congo to be experiencing a classic

37:44 This is a quote, classic communist effort, take over government, unquote. Really? A classic one. Now, keep in mind, how many countries have the CIA been inside of and watched this happen? Cuba? Because it didn't happen in any of the rest of them. They weren't technically.

38:23 I guess they were inside China when Mao took over, fighting with Xi'an. But literally talking, because we're talking about in 1960, what was the classic model? The one where you lie about everybody being communist so that you can go in and steal the uranium in this case? This is so crazy. They can't talk to anybody in the country.

38:53 They can't communicate with anybody except for Patrice Lumumba. They don't even talk to him. They don't speak the language. The only thing that is being told to them is from the Belgians who just got kicked out of the country. It's so hard to believe this. I mean, it isn't, but it is.

39:16 In Washington that day, President Eisenhower told the National Security Council that there would be no question of one man forcing the UN and the United States out of the Congo. They were not leaving. Ike's declaration, it should be noted, came within hours of his final go ahead on the Cuba project. Just let all hell break loose. Because, of course, he's a...

39:51 his presidency is going to be over in less than a year. Just open all the doors. His wording struck NSC staffer Robert Johnson as something like a presidential order for an assassination. A week later, Gordon Gray reminded the 5412 group of the need for vigorous direct action in the Congo. The DO's Africa division, barely a year old at the time,

40:19 looked toward its first big operation. Chief Bronson Tweedy, his wartime background in naval intelligence and later CIA service in Bern, Vienna, and London, stood ready to go. Bruns, in his time, had coordinated a few covert actions with the British, but, like Devlin, knew nothing about Africa. He crafted what the CIA called Project Wizard.

40:46 which began as a political action to neutralize Patrice Lumumba. Tweedy anticipated Devlin's classic takeover message with one reporting that he had begun to seek approval for covert action. Bissell answered Devlin immediately after the president's NSC outburst, sending instructions to give permission to proceed. Patrice Lumumba's appeal to the Soviet Union actually occurred on August.

41:16 21st, three days after Washington's decision. Yeah, I knew it wasn't in like June when it first started happening. In a fresh cable in August 26th, following Gray's exchange with the 5412, Director Dulles declared that Lumumba's removal had become an urgent objective. The phrase in high quarters in that cable.

41:46 would have been understood by CIA officers as a reference to the president. Usually such cables were reviewed by the relevant deputy director. Preparing to testify before the investigators of the church committee in 1975, Richard Bissell, shown a copy of this dispatch, was astonished to see that it had been released by Richard Helms, not himself. In fact, Bissell had been on vacation.

42:17 Helms had sent it in his stead. In his memoirs, Bissell recalls his return to duty when Alan Dulles explained that he had written the cable just after a meeting with Eisenhower and his advisors had explored the subject at length. Bissell met with Tweedy about planning a murder using poison and with CIA scientist Sidney Gottlieb about neutralizing.

42:46 an unnamed African leader. Bronze assumed Bissell had authority to issue these orders. The division chief set up a special security compartment, PROP, for all information on the operation. CIA scientist Gottlieb descended on Leopoldsville in late September, slugged

43:14 in cable traffic as Joe from Paris or Joseph Braun. That was his pseudonym. Another in the sudden influx of agency officers, Gottlieb came bearing exotic poison and a plan to murder Lumumba, separate from and in addition to Project Wizard, itself quickly approved by the 5412 group. As with the...

43:44 Castro plot, senior participants have denied any presidential connection with assassination in the Congo. But the Senate investigation amply demonstrates that approved or not, this plotting actually happened. Larry Devlin remained in the dark about the scheme, though for more than a month, it had been plain that the agency wished to get rid of Lumumba.

44:13 Devlin mulled this over when David Doyle, one of the case officers, Doyle suggested using a high-powered rifle with telescope, pointing out a couple of the CIA men were cracked shots. By Doyle's account, the whole idea infuriated Devlin, who was a good Catholic, who regarded it completely immoral. That's horseshit. I don't know where this guy's going with this.

44:46 Doyle believes Devlin rejected the Washington hatched assassination plots, but he lacked direct knowledge in September. Devlin sent Doyle forward to Katanga to replace Anderson at Elizabethville because they've already... Devlin knew all of this. Remember, Devlin is the guy that was responsible. And I don't, again, I'm...

45:11 cheating, but I don't remember if this guy makes this because I've read so many versions of this story. But Devlin is the guy that had the dead body in his car. And Devlin is also the guy that ends up working in the Congo after they murder Patrice Lumumba when he retires. He goes back and makes bank off of their corrupt dictator that they installed. He is not a good Catholic by any stretch of the imagination.

45:44 Okay, David Doyle could not arrive in Katanga soon enough for the base chief. Anderson's files turned out to consist entirely of his demands to be relieved. Now, remember, Katanga is where they're going to stage the quote unquote civil war and claim it as a new country so they can protect the uranium where we found Otto Skorzeny in the Katanga area. Devlin.

46:15 whose pseudonym was Victor Hedgeman in some CIA documents, got orders to prepare for the arrival of someone who would identify himself fully with instructions that must be carried out and to mention this operation to no one. This is consistent with the station chief rejecting the Lumumba murder plot earlier. Gottlieb was the person referred to.

46:45 Two days before Gottlieb's arrival, Allen Dulles sent another personal cable to the station. Not taking Gottlieb's word, Devlin queried the CIA headquarters. Nothing in his training or experience had prepared him for a murder order. Asking about the authority, Devlin was told the order had came from the president. Fifteen years later, he told congressional investigations that he promptly received confirmation.

47:15 Devlin mentioned shooting as an alternative. He stalled, threw up obstacles, his assets were not good enough, an airtight op would be impossible. He would send to use one of the station's most sensitive agents. By then, it would be early October. The agent swore himself ready to help, but was lukewarm to the plot. Meanwhile, the aged poison lost potency.

47:46 A CIA officer tossed the stuff into the Congo River. Oh, you know, poison in the river, no big deal. There are other reports that said it was taken back and sealed in a safe in the CIA, but it's probably more likely it was in the river. Gottlieb left on October 5th. Bronson Tweedy finally cabled Devlin that he would send a third country national operative.

48:21 Headquarters also thought about sending a senior agency officer on direct assignment for this mission, a CIA James Bond or a commando group to snatch Lumumba. The African Division did, in fact, send a senior officer to Leopoldville in October 1960, Justin O'Donnell, who went by the name Michael McGroney.

48:47 told congressional investigators that Richard Bissell asked him to go to kill Lumumba. O'Donnell rejected the mission for the same reason as Devlin. He also suggested that such a conspiracy hatched in Washington would be a federal felony. O'Donnell went, but only as an attempt to draw Lumumba out of his security envelope so that someone else could have a chance to hit him. Richard Bissell and Bronson Tweedy both denied.

49:17 having any recollection of these events. Sure they do. Both, however, took the tact that such things could have happened. Yeah, it's not like we haven't done it before. Their memories were simply poor. They have Alzheimer's. When this investigation took place, Bissell was 66 years old. Brown's tweeting was 51 and couldn't remember anything.

49:49 Alan Dulles could not be interviewed because he had died in 1969. In 1960, an American made up their minds about, as Americans made up their mind about Lumumba, the Belgians continued to occupy parts of the country, notably Katanga province, with many of the Congo's most valuable resources, as we know. Urged by the Belgians, Katanganese politician,

50:23 Moise Shambi attempted to succeed. The slow arrival of the UN forces allowed Katanga's secession to bring the Congo to the brink of a civil war. The political cleavage deepened in September when President Kasavubu fired Lumumba's cabinet using Katanga as justification.

50:49 The Americans had made their choice. The 5412 group approved covert financial support for Casa Vubu on September 1st, four days before this constitutional coup. Lumumba reacted by attempting to dismiss the president, creating an impasse resolved only when parliament annulled both actions, meaning they were both still in positions of power.

51:20 They had already put Casavuco on their payroll. Joseph Mubato would be the wild card. A former journalist, Army non-commissioned officer, and member of Lumumba's party, a 29-year-old Mubato became the instant quote-unquote colonel after the Army revolt. Lumumba installed him as chief of staff. American diplomats and the CIA officers, especially Larry Devlin,

51:51 cultivated Mubato for weeks. On September 14th, Mubato launched a military coup declaring his intent to neutralize Kasavutu, Lumamba, and all of the politicians for the rest of the year. Two Project Wizard local assets featured in the structure with which Mubato replaced the cabinet and another became Congolese security chief.

52:19 When the former CIA aide Victor Marchetti wrote in the early 1970s that in the Congo, the agency had bought and sold politicians, he was exactly correct. On September 6th, CIA headquarters cabled Devlin that it had a new plan for Project Wizard.

52:42 to include arms, supplies, and perhaps some training to anti-Lumumba resistant groups. In October 27th, the 5412 group authorized a quarter of a million dollars to fund the support for Mobato. A month later, the moguls of the secret war made the further decision to arm Mobato's forces. So, Lumumba became the prime target.

53:14 Mubato hoped to supplant him with American help. Allen Dulles favored any solution that excluded Lumumba, whom he regarded as undoubtedly bought by the communists.

53:31 At the CIA, a branch formerly responsible for DO activities in several African countries suddenly became the Congo Task Force, led by Edward Wells, a gung-ho secret warrior who had fought alongside the British in the Balkans and Middle East and had been part of the Special Boat Service. There is no available open evidence as to Wells' knowledge of the CIA targeting of Lumumba.

54:00 On November 21st, the third country national, still known in the agency lore, only by his pseudo Q.J. Wynn arrived in Leopoldville to participate in the plot before he could work to get the situation changed. And according to Major Gannis' book, Q.J. Wynn is Otto Skorzeny.

54:32 That's the third party guy. That's how critical getting rid of Lumumba was. They're calling in the trainer. Weeks earlier, Lumumba had asked, and there's a reason why it's still classified today, because it's Otto Skorzeny. Weeks earlier, Lumumba had asked for the UN protection, and the UN created an envelope around the government house that amounted to incarceration.

55:06 Basically, they had constructed a prison around Lumumba. Frustrated by oppressive security, Lumumba escaped, aided by sympathetic guards, and he made his way to Stanleyville, evading UN troops, but he never arrived. He was slowed by rain, unable to resist the crowds in every village that demanded to speak. The leader found himself critically delayed. Surveillance reports from CIA eventually asked,

55:36 aided in his capture on December 1st by Mobato's forces. On December 12th, Shambi declared his secessionist state of Katanga, and Q.J. Nguyen left the Congo in late December, but not before the touch of another CIA asset.

56:04 W.J. Rogue attempting to recruit him for an attempt against Lumumba. So we're going to stop right there and we'll pick up from there. Again, this is kind of just a refresher for us other than the whole Devlin thing. That's just absolutely patently ridiculous. But anyway, it's good to go over these. The rest of this chapter,

56:42 takes us a couple of other places as well, but it kind of is important putting into context all of the stuff that was happening just prior to JFK's presidency and the mess that he was handed off. SR, go ahead. Thank you, Colonel. I want to thank everyone for being here today and on Spaces and on Rumble.

57:09 I was about to say that, and you just covered it, saying that, gee, we went from 1960s to 1961, and we had all this trash going on at the same time. The other thing that sort of hit my funny bone was the deal with Krabs. I can see that report right now. Krabs stopped our forces. What do you mean, Krabs?

57:39 It blows my mind. Yep. Very interesting. Ron, did you have anything you wanted to say? Oh, Colonel, I came in and got it by the last five minutes of the thing, so I didn't really get to hear anything. What was the book that you talked about, the one, the general that said, that claimed that the accusation was Skorzeny? He was a major.

58:10 His last name is Gannis, G-A-N-N-I-S. We did his book over on the Rumble channel. Okay. I was just curious. It's called The Skorzeny Papers is the name of his book. I've actually talked to him on the phone. Oh, nice. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, he has a very interesting story. But he has a lot of documentation that definitely suggests that...

58:38 Um, when is, uh, Otto Skorzeny? There's other people that think it's other people. Um, but Skorzeny's, um, timeline supports it. And so does his expertise. I don't, you know, I forgive me because I came in late. I don't, I don't know. I don't want to, but you know, I find it interesting that Lumumba, I think was basically like.

59:03 Is it safe to say he was kind of like the Gaddafi of the day, wanted to organize Africa and get them all together type situation and they couldn't have that? Is that kind of the? No, no, no. Lumumba, was he of that mind? Likely. But Lumumba was very charismatic. And because they had been enslaved in the Congo, it was not yet.

59:33 well-developed what his operation was going to look like. He basically just wanted what's best for the Congolese people. He was very vocal about the fact that throughout the colonialization of Africa, but who wouldn't be?

1:00:00 That was true everywhere that the people had been underserved. I mean, again, there's no one in their military except for a handful of people that even have an education. And all of the officers are Belgium. You know, this is a country where if you didn't make your quota in the mines, they would chop your hands off. And they also did awful things to the children there.

1:00:29 There was child labor. There was all kinds of gross things going on. I've read several books about just how horrific the conditions were in the Congo under Belgium. It had been a Belgium colony, a playground for the king originally, and then he handed it off to the state of Belgium or the country of Belgium. But they had stolen literally everything from these people and enslaved them.

1:00:58 And so they just wanted a free country. Lumumba had been educated and he was the only one that had the potential in the entire country to lead them in. And his crime was coming to America. And, you know, he didn't even talk about this, but he actually traveled to the United States and tried to meet with Eisenhower and Nixon and they wouldn't meet with him.

1:01:27 and cut Belgium out of their mining contract for uranium. He wanted to sell all of it exclusively to the United States, which had been the deal that they had with Belgium, but they did not want the Belgian mining company getting any of the profits because they were no longer a colony. On the day they got their independence in Lumumba's mine, that mining and everything else became the property of the Congo.

1:01:56 not Belgium. And Lumumba's idea was, hey, if we take Belgium's share of the uranium profits, then I can build schools, I can build hospitals, I can do all of this wonderful stuff for the Congo, and then we can use our wealth to help other countries. And Washington basically told them to pound sand. They wasn't changing a damn thing.

1:02:23 And they didn't care if the rest of the people in Congo ever got educated. That's spreading democracy. Go ahead, Ron. I'm detecting a theme. It sounds like Ho Chi Minh and I didn't Castro. Everyone. It's called a pattern. It's called a pattern. I'm sorry. I don't mean to laugh. It's not funny, but it is funny in a certain sick way. It is a pattern. Yes.

1:02:56 Illini, welcome back. Are you there? I had to text him the other day to see if he was even alive. SR, go ahead. Thank you, Colonel. Just for Ron here and everybody else, I posted the link to the score of Zinni papers in the playlist, in the pill, and over on Rumble. Thank you. If anybody wants to...

1:03:32 Go through that. It is very, very interesting. You won't believe what comes up. As a matter of fact, the interview that the colonel did with Gannis, as I recall, there were several things that they touched on, but there were things that Gannis would not talk about. So what was very interesting to me about that book.

1:03:57 is that that's the book that disclosed for the first time, as far as I know, that we had B-52s on alert with pilots and engines running in California to fly to, let me see, oh, with the USS Liberty to aid in that war with Egypt because they were intending to sink. And he goes into,

1:04:25 a lot of detail that I already knew was true. But it was interesting reading him say it about the redundancy in the spying capability through the NSA at the time. Anything that the Liberty was collecting as far as intercepts was not exclusively to the Liberty. There is...

1:04:53 Naval security detachments all over the Mediterranean. They kind of echo these surveillance intercepts to these stations so that they can make sure that they are translated in real time because they did not have on the Liberty.

1:05:22 translators of every language. Like they make a big deal over the fact that they didn't have any translators that spoke Yiddish or whatever, Hebrew, whatever the language was of the pilot. And that is true.

1:05:42 but they had the second and third tier translators. They literally worked 24 seven because I was at one of those bases and I know how they operate. And as soon as I was reading his text about the intercept, because they all report under their operationally, they are under the NSA, all of these naval security detachments. We had one at our base. As a matter of fact, just a quick aside note,

1:06:10 It was a lieutenant colonel that ran the Naval Security Detachment at our base. And at a small military base, the junior officers, of which I was one, when I was there in Italy, they get like five different additional duties. You guys have heard me jokingly tell Alpha that I was the narcotics officer on the base.

1:06:33 I was the one that went over to security police every time they trained their canines and signed out the cocaine for them and weighed it and then weighed it coming back. That was my additional duty. But I was also given a full-time job, which is normally a GS-11 job on the base as the school's officer. And our naval security commander lived off base. So I was the disciplinary officer for the school.

1:07:01 whatever he was, Lieutenant Commander. He was an 05. His kids got in trouble on the school bus and I had to suspend them from the school bus. So here's this, I don't know, I pinned on Captain over there. So I was either a First Lieutenant or a Captain. And I'm telling this Lieutenant Colonel in a meeting with his wife.

1:07:20 That your kid ain't riding the school bus anymore. It was a horrible job. I learned a whole bunch of stuff about contracting and stuff because I was the contracting officer for them. I spent all of their money. I did all of their, because they were a tenant on our base, the Department of Dependent School System, DODS.

1:07:46 So I did all of their paperwork. I learned so much in that job, but that was another full-time job that they couldn't find a GS-11 civilian to be in that job. So my wing commander just said, hey, because we were in the same building with the headquarters, he just saw me in the hallway one day and said, hey, you're going to be my new schools officer. So I'm very familiar with them. All of my friends were intel officers at, because the Air Force had about,

1:08:14 Oh, I'd say 3,000 linguists. All of them had to be TSSCI. It was a whole nother ball of wax every time one of them got in trouble because of their clearance. That was one of my most exciting assignments because I learned things during that tour that I would have not learned as a personnel officer anywhere else, but being at a base like that. So as soon as I was reading Major Gannis' book, I'm like,

1:08:43 Yeah, that would have been like relayed to multiple of, because there was one of us at Heraklion in Greece. There was us in, and we were at the very bottom of Italy, like sticking out into the Mediterranean. So we did all of that area where the USS Liberty was at. Why are you so mad? Go ahead. I was wondering if you had a link to the podcast that you were talking about at the beginning of the space with Tommy and the...

1:09:12 Not yet. I just got off of that before this one. I will share it as soon as I get it. Cool. All right. Thank you. And by the way, wonderful space. Very informative. Hang in there. Thank you. Why don't I go ahead? Hey, Colonel, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. It's good to talk to you. It's great talking to you again. I've been crazy busy with the oil market. I bet you have. It's interesting how I think John Prados' book was written in the 1990s.

1:09:41 And I think the fascinating thing about it is that, you know, at least the majority of it, if not like the substantial majorities, is based on, you know, stuff that was released by the Church Commission, right? Like we're talking about Lumumba right now. The U.S. public wasn't aware of the issues in Belgium or Lumumba until Frank Church showed up. I think it just kind of shows everybody just, you know, what a hero.

1:10:09 uh senator church was um how he basically exposed everything from watergate to um guatemala yep uh to number of issues surrounding the bay of pigs the assassination attempts on castro to um i i i think he he helped expose um the chilean coup too yeah but you know it's it's kind of interesting how

1:10:35 Back in 1975, he basically made it safe for us to talk about what the CIA had been up to from the 1950s up until the early 1970s. And he basically put it all out there. And he lost his political career over it, ultimately. But he did the country a huge favor and at least kind of gave us a direction to go in that's still affecting the conversation.

1:11:02 It was like a really important platform for us to build on, you know, heading into the whole situation with Trump. And Prados, you know, there's other, you know, original stuff in here too, but a majority of what he's talking about here is stuff that came out from the 75 Church Commission. You're absolutely right. Great observation. Yeah, this book, this book was copyrighted in 2006.

1:11:28 Okay, I apologize. Yeah, it was 2006, actually. Yeah, it came out much later. But we did, there was a dearth of information after that. And there wasn't a lot of information before, you know, Watergate either. So yeah, yeah, he does. And like, I know you've, I don't know if you've been listening to him at all the rest of the previous chapters, but

1:11:52 That's one of the things that I consistently say about this book. This book is the first book that names all of the names, all of the station chiefs, all of the people on the teams, all of them.

1:12:06 Most of them will maybe identify a station chief and maybe identify a handful of people that was on the task force at CIA headquarters. This guy has done so much research into every facet of these operations that it's mind-boggling to me. Very, very good resource for anybody looking into this. It's terrific journalism.

1:12:35 However, he ran into various classified walls too if he had tried to run this research back in the aughts. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's why I think it's so important for us to get all of the fundamental stuff kind of cemented in our brain. Because as the other material comes out, we know where to put that material because we've built a basis.

1:13:04 for it. Some people might think that it's a little redundant, but it's very good to keep this stuff fresh in our minds. Ron, go ahead. Redundancy is a good thing for that very same purpose. I find it very interesting that you said there was no linguists on board that spoke Hebrew. Well,

1:13:34 Didn't they stop – didn't the Liberty make a pit stop in Spain on their way into – on the way to the eastern Mediterranean because they picked up extralinguists? So I'm just telling you what the Liberty guy told me. I'm not questioning you. I'm just saying, am I right? Because I recall – They did stop in – yeah.

1:14:01 Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, why wouldn't they pick up? Why wouldn't they pick up a language that spoke Hebrew if they were going to pick up guys? Because if they knew where they were going, the intel community knew where they were going, unless they knew that they were going to get they didn't want anybody to be interpreting Hebrew. So that would be my that would be my summation. A hundred percent. So and then another thing I think it's I think it's fair to note here is that Frank Church.

1:14:28 was basically like the Chuck Schumer or the Nancy Pelosi or the AOC of the Democrat Party at that time. He was hard left. He was one of the hardest left people in Congress, to my understanding. So I don't understand, and I don't quite understand how that works out.

1:14:49 Well, but that's all a long point. That's what he's been saying all of this time. It used to be, back in the day, the left that was trying to hold government accountable. That's what their whole job was. But that's why he now uses that term fake hard left or fake left or whatever is because they've become part of the...

1:15:16 international syndicates, lapdogs. So that was their original job because it was back in the day, as Warhamster constantly points out, the Republicans were all the neocons. They were the ones representing the rich and it was what you would refer to as the hard left, the actual liberals that wanted government accountability.

1:15:47 So that makes perfect sense. Adolph, I saw you raise your hand. Did you have a question or a comment? Yeah, I do. Also, hello. It's a pleasure to be speaking with you. How do I say this? I am a huge fan of your work. I've only been able to know you through Tom Luongo, Alex Graydon, that group. So also, hi.

1:16:16 I was more so the question that I have is kind of packing about the current geopolitical thing. I'd like to look at the overview of it. So and also the question regarding my country. I'm from India. So, yeah, that too. So one question would be after the whole Iran ends, what would be the what would be the next move geopolitically that the United States would be targeting to dismantle?

1:16:46 Basically, it's opposition that we know, City of London, Davos, et cetera. Well, I think that they're doing a great job of revealing exactly who they are. And I think that will become more evident as a little bit more time goes by. I think all of these mid-tier level

1:17:14 entities that have been used under what I refer to as the strategy of tension to facilitate these destabilization operations, the more that this alignment of the different

1:17:32 factions happen that the exposure piece of this, the use of the Lloyds of London and the British saying that, hey, we're going to sit this one out. You've never set anything out ever. You have been part of it. And now all of a sudden, we're doing something that's dismantling your control mechanism and you want to sit it out.

1:18:01 I don't know how and I try not to do any forecasting here. I just base how I see the world based on history. We know where the control points are and they're systematically being revealed to even the common person that hasn't done any research at all just by how they respond to these things that are unfolding.

1:18:32 Gotcha. And that leads me to my second question, and that would be all for my end. And that would be, where do you think, based on your understanding of, based on your understanding, your research, so on and so forth, where do you think India lies? Do you think India lies at the side of the Davosian group or the side of the Soviet? That's pretty much where that is. So that's a very interesting question. I have a couple of friends that live in India.

1:18:59 That is a very, very interesting question because the history of India would say that it's going to align with the British. There is still a lot of British influence in India. And I don't know how successful, because I don't live there, I don't know how successful the Trump administration has been.

1:19:29 in making inroads into India and giving them the off ramp to finally break free of this whole control mechanism. So I don't feel like I'm qualified to say exactly where they're gonna land. They have a choice. And he's been very, holding his cards very close.

1:19:56 And I think that's true with Turkey as well. Turkey has been both under the globalists in the United States, because we have funded them to become the biggest military in all of NATO, with their Gladio operations, the Gray Wolves and several other, they've been instrumental in sending people.

1:20:22 all over the world in part of these destabilization. But they've always had a very close relationship with the city of London as well. And I was encouraged when Erdogan made that trip down to the meeting, the state visit with MBS. I think MBS...

1:20:42 basically had a heart-to-heart conversation with him and say, you know, basically shit or get off the pot. You are going to go down if you don't choose the path of the good guys and you stay wedded to the neocon old globalist regime. And I would say that's probably been the same case with India. India's just been very,

1:21:11 uh reserve about which way they're going to head thank you what are your opinion what's your opinion of india okay so my opinion well my entire journey from this point keep uh keep all of this in perspective uh into account my entire geopolitical journey just pretty much happened from like a year ago so like this all started from one

1:21:44 small personal thing of mine and then it elevated down to me being interested into politics so i wouldn't have complete well worse knowledge of like every intrinsic thing so um if i had to put my um into it um if i had to put my intuition speaking because most of the things how i've landed to this point has been into intuition um i do think that

1:22:14 based on the Chabahar court incident, for the most part, there has been an article that I just found or a piece of info that we are no longer supporting the Chabahar court, which was supposed to help with the trade route to get the Russians the access to the Indian Ocean. And that is to also prevent the Suez Canal, the reliance upon the Suez Canal, which was the biggest...

1:22:43 A thing that was been fought for like centuries ago, based on my understanding. So the fact that we are not supporting that anymore, to me, gives an indication that we are on the globe, like we India are on the globalist side. But I could be further from that. A lot of other factors that I could be missing. No, that's it. Yeah, that's a great observation. Because that's a great observation.

1:23:13 Yeah, that's a critical piece, I think. And that's why I can't get a read on India. There are some things that they've done that makes me think that they are in alignment with Trump. But then there's other things that they have done that would indicate the exact opposite. And that's why I think he's playing everything very close to it. You know, he's got his cards. He's not showing any of his cards because I think and.

1:23:42 To India's credit, in the past, this is something that goes back to the heart of JFK. JFK was basically doing the same thing Trump's doing today back then. He was trying to recognize sovereignty and cut all of these strings of these international syndicate criminals, and they assassinated him.

1:24:08 And so you don't want to show your hand too soon if you're a country, especially one as big and as influential as India, and piss off all the globalists because they're going to come for you too. So it is a very interesting time for the major players here on whether to get on the train or stay on the train that you're on.

1:24:38 And a country as big as India, that's got to be fraught with lots of danger. Yep. And, well, since the elections are also coming by, we are kind of at the moment having certain state elections. So Modi's trying to, like, challenge the leftists in, like, parts of South India. I think if they can succeed, well, I have been to the communist state, which is Kerala.

1:25:08 my entire life. I didn't know I was living in a communist country until I was, like, looking on the map, like, last six months ago, and I was like, oh, so this digital ID, Aadhaar card and all that, oh, that's a globalist way. Yeah. Shit, okay. Did not know that. Yeah. And, yeah, and I, for the most part, I don't know if Modi having control with his party, the BJP, having, like, you know,

1:25:39 dismantle the communist party in kerala would undo a lot of the other card and all this other you know globalist machinations that's already been like implemented in kerala but i'll i'll let you keep update i'll update you on that if and when they do succeed yes thank you thank you and and welcome to our group um ron go ahead thank you ron ron oh i guess he uh i mean yeah

1:26:20 There's like the eighth time I've had to do this. I have a very difficult time believing that India would side with England or London after all the history that they've had. Ron, that's not how the game's played. Okay. The leading families in India, like the Tata family, have deep, deep connections to the globalists in London. Deep.

1:26:50 connections, just like they have deep connections to the globalists in the United States. And the politicians, just like Trump, that come to power and try to break those holes are in very tenuous situations, just as we see here. So those ties are definitely there. I mean, we've been free for 250 years.

1:27:18 They have a noose around our neck thanks to the Federal Reserve, the Rockefeller family, the Whitney family. They all married UK royals, war hamster columns of penny princesses. No, the dollar princesses that brought all the Fabian socialism over here. Yeah, so India has the same thing going on.

1:27:41 Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense. And forgive me, that was really a surface level comment, not a deep one. Not a deep one. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that is the natural thing. And you have to relearn everything based on this new model that we found. Most people would have that exact same response. What are you talking about? But that's exactly what happens.

1:28:09 Well, I mean, the Bengal famine, where they, it's like, I mean, that was like recent. That's like within what, 60, 70 years ago? It is what it is. I know. So anyway, all right, guys, I've got the round table with General Holt and a couple of other people. Steve.

1:28:38 coming up at six. So I'm going to go ahead and jump off of here. I'll send you guys a link if you want to listen into that. Should be very interesting. Love those guys. Will that be live? Yes. Yeah. So anyway, you guys take care. I'm going to grab me something to eat real quick and I'll see you back here tomorrow. Take care, everybody.

Entities here

CIA25 Patrice Lumumba25 Congo25 United States22 Belgium20 Richard M. Bissell Jr.19 Allen Dulles17 Operation Pluto15 Lawrence Devlin15 Congo Crisis13 John F. Kennedy12 Jean Kirkpatrick12 India11 Dwight D. Eisenhower9 John McCone9 Sidney Gottlieb7 Otto Skorzeny7 Directorate of Operations7 Soviet Union7 Fidel Castro6 Project Wizard5 The Skorzeny Papers5 Major Gannis5 Tracy Barnes5 5412 Committee5 Joseph Kasavubu5 Mobutu Sese Seko5 Cuba5 Naval Security Detachment4 Bronson Tweedy4 Brigade 25064 Charles Cabell4 Richard Helms3 John Prados3 Taylor Panel3 Grayston Lynch3 John Lee Anderson3 Frank Church3 Watergate scandal2 Presidential Intelligence Advisory Board2

Claims made here

Jean Kirkpatrick headed CIA documented ▶ 8:11

“Kirkpatrick with his staff of about a dozen investigators assembled a detailed picture of the CIA side of the affair. Studying the paper trail and talking to more than 125 people, the investigators to…”

Jean Kirkpatrick criticized Operation Pluto documented ▶ 8:11

Richard M. Bissell Jr. headed Directorate of Operations documented ▶ 8:29

“Taylor panel, but went far beyond it in terms of criticizing the Secret Warriors' assumptions about Castro's vulnerability, arrangements for equipment and training, and changes in the planning, the op…”

Tom Parrott criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 8:58

“animosity for Bissell after having been passed over for the job himself. His report was then characterized as a hatchet job. Even college friend Tom Parrott took that view. Richard Bissell raised the …”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 8:58

John McCone succeeded Allen Dulles documented ▶ 11:00

“By then, a new director held the reins at the CIA. Despite the direct relationship between the mess and his own appointment, John McComb gave Kirkpatrick's report short shrift. Then the IG presented i…”

John McCone criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 11:00

Richard M. Bissell Jr. criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 11:55

“largely the work of Tracy Barnes, and practically as long as the IG report itself, that paper went to the director on January 18, 1962. Denunciations of the report was also filed separately by Alan Du…”

Charles Cabell criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 11:55

Allen Dulles criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 11:55

Richard M. Bissell Jr. criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 12:25

“and by three Cuba task force officers. All these circulated with Kirkpatrick's report. Then Director McCone had the copies collected. McCone had all saved, one destroyed. Years later, in his memoirs, …”

Richard Helms criticized Jean Kirkpatrick documented ▶ 13:49

“under JFK like they had been under Eisenhower. That was stuffy. Stuffy discussions and negotiations when you're talking about killing people. Imagine that. Richard Helms, who had a better opinion of L…”

Allen Dulles headed CIA documented ▶ 14:51

“Although the CIA might not have looked so bad in the Taylor report, Kennedy had considered Alan Dulles a master spy and a political asset, and now he did not. At lunch with author Schlesinger and Jame…”

John F. Kennedy criticized Allen Dulles documented ▶ 14:51

John F. Kennedy removed_from_power Allen Dulles documented ▶ 15:18

“Allen on until the completion of the new CIA headquarters building in Langley, the construction of which had been one of Dulles' great dreams. And then he pulled the rug out and fired him so that he n…”

Allen Dulles removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 15:18

Allen Dulles founded The Craft of Intelligence documented ▶ 15:18

Arthur Schlesinger Jr. founded The Craft of Intelligence documented ▶ 15:48

“to publication of the Schlesinger and Theodore Sorensen's memoirs on Kennedy. With their description of the president's concerns about the CIA plans, Dulles wrote drafts of a reply, hundreds of pages,…”

Theodore Sorensen founded The Craft of Intelligence documented ▶ 15:48

John McCone criticized Allen Dulles documented ▶ 16:46

“fail to protest repeated orders to reduce the noise level of the operation. So as to avoid hardening the president's leanings against it. Dulles, who rejected Kirkpatrick's IG report, accepts its key …”

Grayston Lynch founded The Craft of Intelligence documented ▶ 17:15

“that a big mistake had been Dulles' absence from the scene. Going to Puerto Rico created a problem. Among smaller fry, Grayston Lynch, in 1998 memoir, published a fierce diatribe aimed primarily at Sc…”

Grayston Lynch criticized Arthur Schlesinger Jr. documented ▶ 17:15

Grayston Lynch criticized Theodore Sorensen documented ▶ 17:15

Grayston Lynch criticized Haynes Johnson documented ▶ 17:15

Grayston Lynch criticized Taylor Panel documented ▶ 17:15

Grayston Lynch criticized John F. Kennedy documented ▶ 17:46

“whitewash as the Taylor Report. The on-scene CIA officer, Lynch, defends the fighters in Brigade 2506 and places the responsibility squarely on Kennedy's shoulders. Lynch has certain details wrong. Fo…”

Charles Cabell criticized John F. Kennedy documented ▶ 19:15

“Agency Deputy Director Charles Cabell makes the same argument. It's 100% speculation. 100%. They have no clue. At best, the CIA's Air Force might have denied Castro's forces entry into Garon area. Mor…”

Brigade 2506 carried_out_attack Cuba documented ▶ 19:44

“Brigade 2506 would still have had to get out through a far superior Cuban army, which the terrain would have had favored just as it did to help in an exile defense, which is what they thought it was g…”

CIA funded Brigade 2506 documented ▶ 21:42

“While every single element had to go right for it to have even had a remote chance of success. The CIA's project had been marginal at best from the beginning. Dwight Eisenhower and the agency share th…”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. headed Operation Pluto documented ▶ 21:42

John McCone headed CIA documented ▶ 22:13

“Kennedy famously told him that if America had had a parliamentary government, he, the president, would resign. But given the presidential system, Bissell had to go instead. McCone came on board to rep…”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. headed Institute for Defense Analyses documented ▶ 23:09

“doing science and technology that the agency was about to create. Bissell declined. He left instead to head a think tank. Of course, that's what all CIA guys do. The Institute of Defense Analysis in A…”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. removed_from_power Directorate of Operations documented ▶ 23:09

E. Howard Hunt member_of CIA documented ▶ 24:11

“Dio, Bissell, and John Brose all walked the plank in his staff meeting. His subordinate said that. The staffer was shunted to a job at the Pentagon, but Barnes moved over to become division chief of a…”

Tracy Barnes reassigned CIA documented ▶ 24:11

Charles Cabell removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 24:43

“is moved to do the CIA shit in the United States. Rest assured, everything's fine. Holy crap. So what that tells me is Barnes was moved over to begin the planning for the assassination of JFK. General…”

Robert Embry removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 25:15

“Lyman Kirkpatrick, removed as inspector general because he told the truth, became the CIA's executive director, another of McCone's new post, but found the job not to his liking. So he left in 1964 to…”

John McCone removed_from_power Jean Kirkpatrick host_asserted ▶ 25:15

Jean Kirkpatrick removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 25:15

Jean Kirkpatrick headed CIA documented ▶ 25:15

Dick Drain reassigned CIA documented ▶ 25:43

“Becoming head of the International Division of the Bureau of Budget, which is where the CIA gets all of their money, Dick Drain tried to get as far away from it as he could and went to Nairobi as the …”

Robert Embry headed Bureau of the Budget documented ▶ 25:43

Gar Thorsrug reassigned CIA documented ▶ 26:16

“careers appeared unaffected, but in the long run, sputtered out. Gar Thorsrug shifted to one of the proprietaries and worked out of a disguised CIA airbase in Marana, Arizona. Isn't that where Evergre…”

Gar Thorsrug removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 26:16

Jack Hawkins headed CIA documented ▶ 26:47

“for the White House division while Jake Esterling became the chief of operations. They soon had their hands back in the Guyana affair. That's interesting. Esterling received only a couple more pro for…”

Jack Hawkins reassigned CIA documented ▶ 26:47

Jack Hawkins removed_from_power CIA documented ▶ 27:19

“How cool. The Miami Post embroiled Esterling in hot water again because of the CIA Cubans scandal in Watergate. Esterling retired in mid-1973. By and large, however, the Bay of Pigs proved to be more …”

John F. Kennedy criticized CIA documented ▶ 27:50

“Fewer cashiered, no one went to jail. No one ever goes to jail. Kennedy kept the CIA at arm's length. Langley became more than a headquarters complex across the Potomac River. It was shorthand for the…”

Belgium supplied_arms_to Congo documented ▶ 29:54

“would continue to operate all Congolese institutions. The Belgian commander of the Congolese army, General Emil Janssen, hammered home the point at a meeting with the African soldiers where he wrote o…”

Patrice Lumumba removed_from_power Emil Janssen documented ▶ 31:21

“Then rebel-armed boats blocked the river. The revolt naturally triggered a response by the infant government. Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba attempted to restore order. He dismissed General Janssen, t…”

Patrice Lumumba member_of Movement National Congolese documented ▶ 31:21

Belgium carried_out_attack Congo documented ▶ 32:19

“But the government inevitably coalesced around his party. While the popular Lumumba had a following, the army revolt allowed the Belgians to present his government as ineffective and to intervene with…”

Soviet Union supplied_arms_to Congo documented ▶ 32:45

“once they got rid of the people that were actually causing the problems, which were the Belgium troops. They were instigating it. In various attempts to obtain countervailing assistance, Lumumba and C…”

United States supplied_arms_to Congo documented ▶ 32:45

United States funded Operation Pluto host_asserted ▶ 34:13

“The U.S. Embassy in Leopoldville obtained the overwhelming majority of its information, 90%, from Belgium sources. In other words, they weren't even doing actual intelligence. They were just being fed…”

Lawrence Devlin appointed CIA documented ▶ 34:42

“So they couldn't even talk to him to get intelligence from him to begin with. You want to talk about arrogant? There you go. Lawrence Devlin, the CIA's station chief in Leopoldville, is a case in poin…”

Lawrence Devlin member_of CIA documented ▶ 34:42

John Lee Anderson member_of CIA documented ▶ 36:13

“another from the Far East Division. Similarly, the CIA base at Elizabethville, today, Lumambusky, had just one officer, John Anderson, plus a comm man. Much too senior, Anderson had headed large CIA s…”

Bronson Tweedy member_of CIA documented ▶ 40:19

“looked toward its first big operation. Chief Bronson Tweedy, his wartime background in naval intelligence and later CIA service in Bern, Vienna, and London, stood ready to go. Bruns, in his time, had …”

Allen Dulles headed CIA documented ▶ 41:16

“21st, three days after Washington's decision. Yeah, I knew it wasn't in like June when it first started happening. In a fresh cable in August 26th, following Gray's exchange with the 5412, Director Du…”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. member_of CIA documented ▶ 41:16

Sidney Gottlieb member_of CIA documented ▶ 42:46

“an unnamed African leader. Bronze assumed Bissell had authority to issue these orders. The division chief set up a special security compartment, PROP, for all information on the operation. CIA scienti…”

Sidney Gottlieb carried_out_attack Patrice Lumumba documented ▶ 43:14

“in cable traffic as Joe from Paris or Joseph Braun. That was his pseudonym. Another in the sudden influx of agency officers, Gottlieb came bearing exotic poison and a plan to murder Lumumba, separate …”

Allen Dulles ordered_assassination_of Patrice Lumumba host_asserted ▶ 46:45

“Two days before Gottlieb's arrival, Allen Dulles sent another personal cable to the station. Not taking Gottlieb's word, Devlin queried the CIA headquarters. Nothing in his training or experience had …”

P. J. O'Donnell member_of CIA documented ▶ 48:21

“Headquarters also thought about sending a senior agency officer on direct assignment for this mission, a CIA James Bond or a commando group to snatch Lumumba. The African Division did, in fact, send a…”

Richard M. Bissell Jr. ordered_assassination_of Patrice Lumumba documented ▶ 48:47

“told congressional investigators that Richard Bissell asked him to go to kill Lumumba. O'Donnell rejected the mission for the same reason as Devlin. He also suggested that such a conspiracy hatched in…”

Joseph Kasavubu removed_from_power Patrice Lumumba documented ▶ 50:23

“Moise Shambi attempted to succeed. The slow arrival of the UN forces allowed Katanga's secession to bring the Congo to the brink of a civil war. The political cleavage deepened in September when Presi…”

Patrice Lumumba removed_from_power Joseph Kasavubu documented ▶ 50:49

“The Americans had made their choice. The 5412 group approved covert financial support for Casa Vubu on September 1st, four days before this constitutional coup. Lumumba reacted by attempting to dismis…”

5412 Committee funded Joseph Kasavubu documented ▶ 50:49

Lawrence Devlin recruited Mobutu Sese Seko documented ▶ 51:20

“They had already put Casavuco on their payroll. Joseph Mubato would be the wild card. A former journalist, Army non-commissioned officer, and member of Lumumba's party, a 29-year-old Mubato became the…”

Patrice Lumumba appointed Mobutu Sese Seko documented ▶ 51:20

Victor Marchetti exposed CIA book_quoted ▶ 52:19

“When the former CIA aide Victor Marchetti wrote in the early 1970s that in the Congo, the agency had bought and sold politicians, he was exactly correct. On September 6th, CIA headquarters cabled Devl…”

CIA supplied_arms_to Mobutu Sese Seko documented ▶ 52:42

“to include arms, supplies, and perhaps some training to anti-Lumumba resistant groups. In October 27th, the 5412 group authorized a quarter of a million dollars to fund the support for Mobato. A month…”

CIA funded Mobutu Sese Seko documented ▶ 52:42

Edward Wells headed Congo Task Force documented ▶ 53:31

“At the CIA, a branch formerly responsible for DO activities in several African countries suddenly became the Congo Task Force, led by Edward Wells, a gung-ho secret warrior who had fought alongside th…”

Otto Skorzeny carried_out_attack Patrice Lumumba book_quoted ▶ 54:00

“On November 21st, the third country national, still known in the agency lore, only by his pseudo Q.J. Wynn arrived in Leopoldville to participate in the plot before he could work to get the situation …”

Major Gannis exposed Otto Skorzeny book_quoted ▶ 54:00

Mobutu Sese Seko carried_out_attack Patrice Lumumba documented ▶ 55:06

“Basically, they had constructed a prison around Lumumba. Frustrated by oppressive security, Lumumba escaped, aided by sympathetic guards, and he made his way to Stanleyville, evading UN troops, but he…”

Moise Tshombe overthrew Congo documented ▶ 55:36

“aided in his capture on December 1st by Mobato's forces. On December 12th, Shambi declared his secessionist state of Katanga, and Q.J. Nguyen left the Congo in late December, but not before the touch …”

W.J. Rogue recruited Patrice Lumumba host_asserted ▶ 56:04

“W.J. Rogue attempting to recruit him for an attempt against Lumumba. So we're going to stop right there and we'll pick up from there. Again, this is kind of just a refresher for us other than the whol…”

John Prados exposed Church Committee host_asserted ▶ 1:09:41

“And I think the fascinating thing about it is that, you know, at least the majority of it, if not like the substantial majorities, is based on, you know, stuff that was released by the Church Commissi…”

Frank Church exposed Patrice Lumumba host_asserted ▶ 1:09:41

Frank Church exposed Watergate scandal host_asserted ▶ 1:10:09

“uh senator church was um how he basically exposed everything from watergate to um guatemala yep uh to number of issues surrounding the bay of pigs the assassination attempts on castro to um i i i thin…”

Frank Church exposed 1973 Chilean coup d'état host_asserted ▶ 1:10:09

Frank Church exposed Bay of Pigs host_asserted ▶ 1:10:09

Frank Church exposed Fidel Castro host_asserted ▶ 1:10:09

Frank Church exposed Guatemala host_asserted ▶ 1:10:09

Turkey member_of NATO host_asserted ▶ 1:19:56

“And I think that's true with Turkey as well. Turkey has been both under the globalists in the United States, because we have funded them to become the biggest military in all of NATO, with their Gladi…”

Turkey carried_out_attack Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:19:56