The Colonels Corner The Splendid Blond Beast Part 12

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Transcript

0:00 Well, I'm surprised that X is still working and that the internet hasn't broken. Can you hear me, Bridget? Yes, we do. I am on the road now. Okay. I sound like I'm a million miles away. You do. All right. I'm going to go live over here on Rumble and get started. Holy crap. What a day. What a day.

0:38 All right. So welcome, everyone. Let's see. Get the chat up over there on Rumble. It is going. So we're on Chapter 13. This is called This Needs to be Dragged Out into the Open. And this starts off in the Christmas time of 1944, just as the Pell controversy was coming to a head.

1:09 Allen Dulles proposed a plan to Washington under which German industrialists and technical men with brilliant industrial records, you know, the same ones that were running the slave labor camps, who had worked for the Nazis were to be offered amnesty by the OSS in order to retain them as quote-unquote valuable sources of information. The first men Dulles sponsored illustrate the moral question,

1:41 that inevitably arise in such programs. They were a pair of brothers said to be named Smit, S-C-H-M-I-D-T. Dulles wasn't certain of the details. One of them ran a munitions plant, and the other was a senior executive at Meisersmit, Messer, Messersmit.

2:09 in charge of that company's construction and underground facilities. They also had war plane plants near Vienna. Now that the war was clearly lost, Dulles said, the Smith brothers were looking for a safe way out. The ethical dilemma was obvious. On one hand, they might in fact have information useful to the Allied war effort, but on the other hand, they had been part...

2:40 of the exploitation of forced labor, and that was undeniably the foundation of the German arms production throughout the war. The Messerschmitt would also be a suspect in a Nazi extermination through labor efforts as prisoners made up most of the workforce at these factories. Dulles was surely aware of the criminal character

3:11 of much of the German war production because he was in the OSS in Bern, Switzerland, where the guy was bringing all of the information. He was bringing it to Dulles' office. So yes, he certainly was aware of it. The French guerrillas he was underwriting were made up mainly of men who had gone to the hills

3:39 rather than face forced labor. So not only did he have the guy that was the kind of mid-level industrialist that we talked about throughout all of the former chapters bringing the information to Allen Dulles, you had French who had evaded capture that was bringing the information back to Dulles as well. If one concedes that in certain circumstances a greater evil could be avoided by giving amnesty,

4:09 to the Smiths, then exactly how far and on what terms should the protection extend? In this case, Dulles based his appeal for the Smiths on very flimsy evidence. He told Washington that he had been quote-unquote reliably informed that the two brothers were non-political with brilliant industrial records. Yet the OSS man was uncertain of their names.

4:37 but he had it on concrete fact that they were the good guys. Don't know who they are, but they're the good guys. And what of the Smiths who contacted the OSS after the Germans surrender? Should they too receive the same amnesty as quote-unquote valuable information sources? Alan Dulles understood that there were splits between the German economic elite and the diehard Nazis, and he favored dividing these groups to the greatest degree possible.

5:11 He believed he could extract economic and military intelligence from the Nazi partners, sow discord among the Axis ranks, and preserve business and political leaders favoring private enterprise for post-war reconstruction. And again, you have to understand, as we're reading through this, that Alan Dulles and John Foster Dulles were instrumental in writing all of the contract arrangements.

5:40 for the industrialists in Nazi Germany that colluded with their American counterparts during the war. Dulles offered cooperative access leaders promises of protection from prosecution for their crimes and asylum from the advancing Red Army. The collaborators often faced charges of treason, a capital crime, as well as accusations of slave labor.

6:10 persecution, looting, and other offenses that were not just crimes against humanity, but actual, really, war crimes, even by Hackworth's definition. Dulles also appealed to the class interest of former collaborators and their desire to protect, quote-unquote, Western civilization from communism. So, again,

6:38 The war's not over, and we're already talking about the Cold War. But protection from prosecution was for collaborators' cooperation with Dulles, not necessarily with the United States. His effectiveness as an intelligence network builder and as a political broker for peace negotiations was based largely on the promise that the West's wartime cooperation with the Soviets would soon collapse.

7:08 This offered a brief window of opportunity for compromised German executives to switch sides. Western response to Nazi collaborators emerged as an important political debate among the Allies, because collaborators usually had a two-sided political character. On one hand, they had actively helped the Nazis achieve their ends. After all, that is why the Nazis had recruited the collaborators in the first place. On the other hand,

7:38 Many collaborators laid claim to having taken some action in opposition of the Nazis, even if it was basically resigning and handing in their card. Not that they actually weren't collaborating with the Nazis, but something as insignificant of the fact that they handed in their Nazi card was taken into consideration for their opposing the Nazi rules.

8:06 Collaboration during the Nazi occupation in Europe had been most pronounced in the political and business elite and in the police forces of countries under Berlin's control. In Vichy France, for example, there were in fact new genuinely men in office at Vichy, men who had held no major responsibilities under the pre-war Third Republic.

8:34 While French brown shirts found places in the realm of order, like the police, and in producing propaganda, especially later in the regime, they never gained influence in the vital fields of finance, defense, and diplomacy in Hitler's apparatus. But some elements of the Third Republic leadership passed directly into the Vichy regime, almost without change of personnel.

9:01 And keep in mind, this Vichy, they were collaborators with the Nazis. They also formed the basis of the resistance in France to eventually Charles de Gaulle. Officials of the Masonic Order and others tied very closely to a group called the Popular Front and a handful of top officials personally linked to Paul Renard.

9:34 R-E-Y-N-A-U-D. The Third Republic's business elite went on virtually unchanged, along with those who would later join the French government, but no leading businessman comes to mind. BC was run to a large degree by a selection of what French political sociologists called notables.

10:01 People of already high attainment in the world of public administration, business, professions, and local affairs that again had an affinity for Hitler. The situation in other conquered countries varied, of course. In each country, including Germany itself, the elite's enthusiasm for the Nazis had ebbed by the end of the war. Nonetheless, except in Poland,

10:33 and the occupied territories under the Soviet Union, the Nazis consistently succeeded in enlisting the assistance of this established power structure to do its bidding. Wartime collaboration with Nazis frequently had a distinct class character. Complicity with the Nazis tended to follow the lines of existing political, economic, and social power in countries

11:05 conventional post-war government on the continent that seriously attempted to free itself from the influence of wartime collaborators would soon be cutting its own bone, just as Turkey had discovered when it attempted to prosecute the genocidal leaders after the First World War. The integrating institution of society had often played a crucial role in all of the war crimes conducted by the German government.

11:32 But this could not be acknowledged in Europe, much less prosecuted, without damaging the legitimacy of some post-war efforts. This, the U.S. and its non-Soviet allies were unwilling to do. They feared a political and economic consequence that they didn't want. The State Department's faction, which had refused to intervene in European affairs on behalf of the people being worked to death,

12:01 during the war led the way in insisting that the U.S. intervene on behalf of the threatened European elite after the conflict was over. These two tactics, which might seem at first to be contradictory, were in fact based on what seems to them to be the overriding importance of preserving a stable European political center, open markets, and a willingness to cooperate with U.S. geopolitical and economic strategies.

12:30 This was the purported, quote, vital national interest of which Dulles was speaking. General Eisenhower's political advisor from the State Department, Robert Murphy, became one of the most influential advocates of close U.S. relations with all of the Nazi collaborators, particularly those in Vichy France.

12:53 Murphy had risen through the ranks at the State Department after World War I because of his talent for diplomacy and his ability to find common cause between U.S. interests and the old guard in the European establishment. Early in the war, Murphy had brokered a deal with the one-time Vichy collaborator, Admiral John Darlin. For Murphy and for Alan Dulles, George Kennan, and the other factions,

13:22 Men such as Darlin were integral to the overall U.S. political strategy for the war. As Murphy and his allies saw things, communists and socialists were likely to make substantial political gains after the war because of their roles in fighting Hitler. Notwithstanding the Communist Party ambivalence during the 1939-41 Hitler-Stalin pact, if the U.S. wanted something other than a revolutionary government in Europe,

13:52 Murphy contended it would have to reach an understanding with the leadership in Germany. Secretary of Treasury Morgenthau and his allies regarded Murphy as an appeaser of Nazism, a man whose inaction and deceit contributed significantly to the U.S. government's failure to rescue innocent people. The collusion between the two officials, Dulles and Murphy,

14:21 began early and grew more and more, as did the opposition between Morgenthau and Murphy. By 1945, Morgenthau was using almost every audience he had with Roosevelt to argue Murphy's dismissal as the U.S. political advisor in Europe.

14:42 In the last days of 1944, as Dulles was in Bern drafting his brief for the Smith brothers, Morgenthau was in Washington drawing up what amounted to a manifesto on Germany for Roosevelt. Three points seem basic to Morgenthau. Germany had the will to try once more to conquer the world. It would require many years of democracy and re-education to achieve any real change.

15:07 and the survival of the heavy industry would once again give Germany a war-making capability in the near future. Morgenthau concluded his analysis with the following. The more I think of this problem, the more I read and hear discussions of it, the clearer it seems to me that the real motive of those who oppose a weak Germany is not any actual disagreement on these three points.

15:34 On the contrary, it is simply an expression of fear of Russia and communism. It is the 20-year-old idea of the continent of Europe being a bulwark against Bolshevikism, which was one of the factors which brought this present war down on us. Both people who hold this view and unwilling, for reasons which no doubt they regard as statesmanlike,

16:03 to come out in the open and lay the real issue on the table. All sorts of smoke screens are thrown up that Germany must be rebuilt. This thing needs to be dragged out in the open. I feel so deeply about it and I speak strongly. If we don't face it, I am just as sure as I can be that we are going to let a lot of hollow and hypocritical propaganda lead us into recreating a strong Germany.

16:32 and making a foe of Russia. I shudder at the sake our children will face what will follow. And of course, he was right, because they used all of that to create the Cold War, which continued to milk us dry. Robert Murphy was central to the problem, the Treasury Secretary believed, and his campaign to remove him continued up to the moment of FDR's death.

16:59 As winter slowly gave way to spring, FDR invited Morgenthau to visit him at Warm Springs, Georgia. The president, he said, had aged terrifically and looked haggard. His hand shook so bad that he started to knock glasses over. I found his memory bad and he was constantly confusing names. I had never seen him look so bad. But FDR seemed a little better after cocktails and dinner. So the two men settled down to talk.

17:32 Quote, I told the president that General Lucius Clay had called on me and I had asked him what he was going to do about Murphy. And he said that he realized that was one of his headaches. The president said, well, what's the matter with Murphy? And Morgenthau said Murphy was too anxious to collaborate with the Nazis. The president said, well, what have you got on your mind?

18:01 Morgan Thao responded, in order to break the State Department crowd just the way you broke the crowd of admirals when you were Assistant Secretary of the Navy, my suggestion is that you make Claude Bowers political advisor to Eisenhower. Bowers was part of FDR's New Deal team, who was at the time the U.S. Ambassador to Chile. Morgan Thao also told the president.

18:30 President thought that it was a wonderful idea, and so he wouldn't forget it. I made him write it down. Morgenthau went on to appeal to Roosevelt's support for his battle with the State Department over U.S. strategy on Germany and the Soviet Union, and reports in his diary entry that FDR indicated that he was with him 100%. Roosevelt died the next day. Morgenthau remained Secretary of Treasury.

19:00 Hold on. Bridget fell out. During the transition to the new president, Harry Truman, but without FDR's backing, he quickly lost influence within the government. Robert Murphy remained as Eisenhower's political advisor, and the State Department crowd, as Morgan Thao had put it, consolidated its hold over U.S. policy towards Germany and the Soviet Union. Paradoxically, though, their influence in war crime policy had slipped sharply.

19:31 The combination of Pell's dismissal, Padover's report from Germany, Morgenthau's activism, and perhaps some fundamentally the increasing public knowledge of what the Nazis had done as far as the labor camps were concerned, took a toll on the authority of the State Department. U.S. newspapers began to discuss some of the war crimes in details for the first time.

19:57 These factors undermine the ability of well-entranced functionaries in Washington to have their way. Morgenthau worked with Murray Bernays' boss, Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy, to draw up a blueprint for denazification of Germany. This was a new compromise plan that melded Morgenthau's earlier proposals with the War Department.

20:25 and produced relatively hard-hitting policies concerning Nazi criminals and denazification. The U.S. military command eventually created an order dated in late April 1945 under the designation Joint Chiefs of Staff 1067, meaning that it was a Joint Chiefs of Staff order. The principal Allied objective is to prevent Germany from ever again creating a threat.

20:57 Essential steps in the accomplishment of this objective are to the elimination of Nazism and militarism in all their forms, the immediate apprehension of war criminals for punishment, the industrial disarmament and demilitarization of Germany with continuing control over Germany's capacity to make war, and the preparations for eventual reconstruction of Germans' political life.

21:26 JCS 1067 detailed an FDR-style antitrust policy as its centerpiece of the U.S. strategy. The approach was very similar to that which had been the legal backbone of the U.S. Department of Justice Antitrust Division for criminal indictments of major American companies during the 1930s, though it added a feature that former Nazi officials would be barred from any substantial business role in the future.

21:55 The order prohibited German economic cartels and other industrial combines designed to divide up markets, set monopoly prices, and squeeze out competitors. It set a policy of dispersion of ownership and control of German industries by breaking up corporate directorates. JCS 1067's denazification requirements were quite tough-minded.

22:23 The U.S. planned to question under oath each senior executive of Germany's economic ministries and major banks to determine their activities during the Nazi regime. Persons who denounced Jews to the Nazis who had authorized violence in connection with their corporate activities disseminated Nazi propaganda or joined any of the Nazi organizations like the German Christians.

22:53 A neo-pagan movement favored by the SS were to be regarded as ardent supporters of Nazism and removed from their positions. The U.S. regulations declared that the corporate leaders of the Deutsche Bank, Dresdner Bank, and four other large banks had been central to Nazi rule and ordered them removed from their positions, not only at those institutions, but at every board membership that they held among all of the other industries.

23:27 the criteria to look at branch managers and department chiefs within these organizations to be vetted as well and removed from their post only if they were found to be ardent Nazis. The U.S. also had a similar denazification policy for officials at major insurance companies, stock exchanges, and private banks.

23:53 Taken as a whole, then, the official U.S. policy in the spring of 1945 favored strict measures to remove ideological committed Nazis and their diehard supporters from positions of influence. A limited economic reform similar to the U.S. antitrust measures intended to break up German cartels and preserve competition was included.

24:16 The remaining officials of the Roosevelt administration and Morgenthau himself abandoned Morgenthau's early proposals to destroy German mines and shoot senior Nazis on sight. Nonetheless, Washington remained committed to punishment of broad spectrum of German leaders, not just Nazi party elites, and to thorough economic reform, at least written on paper. The written policy is one thing.

24:46 Its implementation is quite another. Robert Murphy took personal charge of the political oversight of this plan immediately, and he made little secret of his inclinations. Meanwhile, the sensitive task of overseeing U.S. intelligence evaluations of German business and political leaders fell to none other than Alan Dulles. Shortly before he took up his OSS post in Berlin, Alan Dulles

25:14 guaranteed de facto asylum to SS officer Carl Wolf, the highest-ranking SS officer to survive the war, and to a collection of his most senior aides. The details of Dulles' deal with this particular Nazi remained buried in classified U.S. government files for more than 40 years. The record is clear. Whether Dulles intended it or not, his strategy for exploiting

25:45 former Nazi leaders, to advance purported U.S. interests had sweeping implications for the U.S. and Soviet relations, and I would argue that was on purpose. Alan Dulles' pivotal role in this hidden but crucial phase of European politics is at the core of Operation Sunrise, the secret negotiations in 1945 for a German surrender in northern Italy. This

26:12 Stepping stone for Dulles' post-war intelligence career was his covert diplomacy, bringing together Western intelligence agencies, fugitive Nazis, and certain leading Vatican officials of the day. In late 1944, Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Schuster of Milan had contacted the SS, the German military command in Italy.

26:39 and OSS agent Dulles in Switzerland, offering to serve as intermediaries in negotiating to ease the surrender of German forces in Italy. This confidential memo, Cardinal Schuster stressed that the Italian Communist Party would likely gain from continued fighting between the US and Germans in the Italian peninsula. The Catholic Church regards the systematic destruction of public utility installations.

27:08 together with that of industrial plants, as a prerequisite of Bolshevik infiltration into Italy. This threat to living conditions, on the one hand, and industrial potential on the other, is intended to create disorder and unemployment. This was the basis in which the masses are to be won, first for the communism and then for Bolshevikism, Schuster wrote.

27:36 He stated that a negotiation with Germans' withdrawal, on the other hand, would stabilize the economic situation, undermine the popularity of communist resistance, and reduce the possibility of German military leaders would be tried for war crimes once the conflict was over. This was the beginning of their later use at Nuremberg to say, they helped us.

28:04 That simple thing with no evidence of this is just a church official writing a bunch of words about this threat that's out there, which had not happened. It was just something they put on a piece of paper saying, hey, this could happen. We could actually have a communist invasion, which sounds exactly like Operation Gladio, which is in the works as well right now. On another note.

28:34 And that document was what Allen Dulles used to basically grant unofficial amnesty to these people, allowed them to basically come over to the Allies' side, and then that information was later presented at Nuremberg that they weren't true Nazis because they really wanted to help us. There was more to the Vatican initiative, strategically speaking, than simply rescuing factories.

29:04 The Vatican proposal would give U.S. and British forces control of a strategically important port in Trieste on the border of Italy and Yugoslavia. This position would permit them to rapidly enter Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Austria so that the U.S. had that territory and not the Soviet Union. The Catholic Church viewed these as historically Catholic territories.

29:35 and didn't want anyone else to have them. Dulles viewed Schuster's proposal as a means to dramatically outflank both Germany and the Soviet Union. He viewed it as a containment policy. This also would dramatically split the U.S. and Britain from its ally, the Soviet Union. It also allowed all of the people involved to be granted asylum for themselves and their family.

30:07 Cardinal Schuster and Monsignor Baccarai, B-I-C-C-H-I-E-R-A-I, had long been among the most prominent clerical supporters of fascism and Mussolini. They were big Mussolini fans. And that came from the SS Colonel Eugen Dahlmann.

30:34 who handled negotiations with the Vatican for the SS during the last days of the war. He actually said Schuster had been very favorably inclined toward fascism in general and Mussolini in particular. Like Pope Pius XI, another native of the Milan area, he too had looked upon the deuce as a man set by providence. Dolman, who had made his career as a liaison between Hitler and Mussolini,

31:06 on a number of sensitive issues, including the SS campaigns to take Italian Jews and export them to the labor camps in Germany. So this wasn't about keeping necessarily the Soviet Union out. This was a perpetuation of fascism. And you have to go back and understand that Mussolini had worked out the deal with the Vatican that basically gave them the sovereign.

31:35 status at the Vatican. There was a lot of history there that is not covered in this book. The Vatican was very loyal to Mussolini, who we know was just like Franco over in Spain. They were fascist. The SS Vatican Initiative was joined by the prominent Melanese industrialist and playboy Baron Lugy.

32:04 Parilli, P-A-R-R-I-L-L-I. He was, not surprisingly, a Knights of Malta and a man with strong contacts in both banking and intelligence throughout Italy and Switzerland. And of course, that would have brought him in close contact with Alan Dulles. This unlikely foursome, the gaunt, severe cardinal in ceremonial robes, his aide,

32:39 and the SS man with a closet full of Italian suits and the skirt-chasing industrialist with a charming smile, as Dahlman put it, became the core of the group determined to deliver Central Europe to the Western Allies before the Soviets arrived. Dahlman's superior, Carl Wolff, the highest-ranking SS officer in Italy,

33:06 Open secret negotiations with Dulles during the early spring of 1945. Talks that would have a destructive effect on sensitive U.S.-Soviet relations later on. Wolf had joined the Nazi party well before Hitler became chancellor. He had served as the SS chief Himmler's most senior executive officer, an adjutant, and his chief of staff.

33:35 He managed Himmler's personal slush fund of gifts from German financiers as well as U.S. backers. He handled sensitive contacts that arranged SS transfers of slave labor to IG Farben and Continental Oil and other major companies. He became the chief sponsor and cheerleader within the Nazi bureaucracy for mass exterminations. So this guy had...

34:04 And again, he doesn't make this point, but this guy was critical to protecting the U.S. people that had been funding Hitler in the early years using the Himmler's circle of friends. So he had dirt on everybody. And it is not a mistake that Alan Dulles is working with him in the aftermath.

34:30 and going to grant him basically asylum from Nuremberg, persecution, blah, blah, blah, because they can't have him on trial. He knows too much. It had been Wolf who lobbied the German transportation ministry to ensure the SS had ample supplies of railroad cars to ship all of these people to their slave labor camps. When Dulles opened contacts with Wolf in early 1945,

35:02 The British military command in Italy notified the Soviets that new peace negotiations had begun for a rapid German surrender in northern Italy. The Soviets replied that they were glad to hear this. All that was required, understanding allied agreements on negotiations with the enemy, was that a handful of senior Soviet military representatives monitor the talks. The U.S. ambassador to

35:31 Moscow, Averill Harriman of Brown Brothers Harriman, one of the people funding and arranging all of this interconnectivity with the U.S., vetoed that. Inviting the Soviets to negotiations would make the Germans nervous, he said. It really made the Americans nervous and would only encourage the Soviets to insist on participation in upcoming decisions about former Axis territories.

36:02 already held by the US and British troops. His was one of the most important voices in the US-Soviet relationship, and his opinion carried the day. Roosevelt and Stalin exchanged increasingly bitter notes as negotiations continued in Switzerland between Dulles and the SS. You guys aren't even going to believe this next sentence. The crew of senior officers involved in this was none other

36:34 then Major General Lyman Lemitsker and General Hoyt Vandenberg. A week after the talks began, Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov sent a note to Harriman in Moscow expressing complete surprise that the Soviet representatives were still being barred from the talks. He said the situation was inexplicable in terms of relations of allies.

36:59 If the U.S. refused to permit Soviet representatives to participate, Molotov continued, the talks had to be abandoned. But they can't let the Soviets in because the Soviets are going to know that the U.S. industrialists was funding Hitler. And then they've got $25 billion debt as a result of that funding, to some extent. Roosevelt wrote directly to Stalin a few days later.

37:28 The Soviet Union misunderstood what was taking place, he insisted. The talks in Italy were basically a local matter, comparable to that which the Baltic Coast cities had earlier surrendered to the Soviets. Roosevelt seemed to approve the Soviet participation in talks, but said these basically weren't actually what they were. You're just misunderstanding it. He insisted the talks in Switzerland were an investigation.

37:58 It really wasn't a negotiation at all. Stalin escalated the argument. His foreign minister, Molotov, suddenly with new commitments in Moscow and would not attend the founding of Roosevelt's most cherished post-war project, the UN organization, unless it was resolved. In a new note to FDR, Stalin replied that he was all for...

38:22 profiting from cases of disintegration of the German armies, but in this case, the Germans were using the talks to maneuver and transfer troops from Italy to the Eastern Front. Roosevelt replied that the Soviet actions in Poland and Romania had not lived up to the commitments made at Yalta. The U.S.-Soviet relationships moved rapidly to an atmosphere of regrettable apprehension and mistrust as a result of Dulles' talks with the SS. Roosevelt

38:51 commented and again insisted to Stalin, that's not what this talk is all about, except it was. Stalin seemed to know many of the details of what was going on inside the talks even before Roosevelt did. When FDR tried to smooth Stalin with a declaration that the Swiss talks were without political significance, Stalin shot back and said, quote, apparently you are not fully informed, unquote.

39:21 Stalin's military intelligence agents in Switzerland were, quote, sure that negotiations did take place and that they ended in an agreement with the Germans, whereby the German commander on the Western Front, Marshal Kessingring, is to open the front to the Anglo-American troops and let them move east, while the British and Americans had promised in exchange to ease the armistice terms for the Germans.

39:49 I think my colleagues are not very far from the truth, he continued. If this perception was wrong, he asked, why were his men being excluded from the talks? Unquote. Cardinal Schuster had proposed that Dulles enter these discussions directly with Wolf. No final deal had been struck, though by early April, both sides in Switzerland were once again seeking the guidance from

40:20 their home offices. The German front had begun to collapse throughout Europe. The Red Army was at the gates of Berlin, and Dulles' grand plan to take Central Europe by way of Therese had failed. The Bern incident, as Roosevelt described it in a last letter to Stalin written only hours before his death, quote, now appears to have faded into the past without having accomplished any useful purpose, unquote. But that was not true.

40:49 it actually achieved a huge benefit to the people involved. FDR's ban on a formal agreement did not preclude Dulles from making more limited gentleman's agreement with his SS counterparts for concessions that he saw advantageous to the U.S. geopolitical strategy.

41:15 The SS delegation, the Swiss intelligence envoys who were serving as go-betweens, and the Soviet agents secretly monitoring the talks, each came away from the talks convinced that Dulles had agreed to provide protection and assistance specifically to General Wolf and his SS entourage to arrange a quick surrender. Wolf's ultimately empty promises of a dramatic German surrender that would advance U.S. and British forces

41:50 Dulles intervened on a half dozen occasions in an effort to keep Operation Sunrise negotiations on track, even after the joint U.S.-British military command in Italy ordered him to stop. By the last week of April, senior U.S. and British military commanders in Italy concluded that Sunrise project was of little more than a effort.

42:14 So the military people thought that the SS was using it to drive a wedge, which, of course, Alan Dulles was guilty of. He's trying to drive a wedge against the Soviets. And the military commanders on the scene in Italy were not part of any of these negotiations. Dulles' top aide, Gero von Gobernix.

42:41 G-A-E-B-E-R-N-I-T-Z, kept the negotiations open and acted with Dulles' cooperation to rescue Wolfe from Italian partisans. The U.S.-British combined chiefs of staff are known to have opened an investigation into Dulles' dereliction of duty and refusal to obey orders in connection with the Wolfe rescue.

43:07 But the records of this inquiry disappeared almost immediately from the OSS and military files and have never been recovered. I bet that's a benefit of becoming the CIA director. As a practical matter, Operation Sunrise contributed considerably more to souring the U.S. relations and to enhancing Allen Dulles' carefully cultivated reputation as a spymaster.

43:36 than anything else. Operation Sunrise was seriously counterproductive from a strategic and political point of view, but not from Dulles' point of view. He got what he wanted because he's intending to set up Operation Gladio throughout Europe and Nazis and their stay-behind infrastructure was critical to Dulles' plan. The unconditional surrender policy did not cost U.S. lives, it saved them.

44:07 perhaps by the thousands, by guaranteeing that the Soviet Union would carry most of the weight in the war against Hitler. While FDR was right about Sunrise, he was mistaken in his hope that a struggle for control, well, he wasn't right about the fact that it wasn't really a negotiation, because it was. In May 1945, only days after FDR's death, the U.S. and British forces sought to consolidate control of Therese as a beachhead for the South Central Europe.

44:37 But Joseph Tito's well-organized Yugoslav partisans regarded the city and its environment as part of a liberated Yugoslavia, and they opposed the U.S.-British initiative. The inter-allied clash over what might otherwise be an obscure seaport became one of the first crystallizing conflicts of the Cold War. Stalin opposed Tito's claim to the port.

45:05 and criticized his adventurism in backing left-wing nationalist guerrillas in the Taris area and in Greece. But that was not how things appeared in Washington. The chief U.S. political advisor on the scene, Alexander Kirk, K-I-R-K, had been the U.S. charge de l'affaire in Moscow during the 30s and an early influential advocate of

45:32 the hardline policy against the Soviet Union. Kirk convinced himself and Washington that Tito's forces were acting as a cat's paw of the Soviet Union and that the Yugoslav claim to the port was an example of aggression. Winston Churchill and Joseph Grew, a Morgenthau opponent who was now acting U.S. Secretary of State, strongly backed Kirk.

45:58 Kurtz's desires report only confirmed their longstanding analysis of Soviet policy. Grew regarded the port crisis as nothing less than the first military confrontation in the U.S.'s war against the Soviets. World War II had thus far resulted in the transfer of totalitarian dictatorship and power from Germany and Japan to the Soviet Union.

46:28 to be the new target. And immediately, they began a propaganda campaign against the Soviet Union. The Port of Turice illustrated the future world pattern that the Soviets aimed to create throughout Europe, they said. The new war against the U.S. and the Soviet Union, quote, is as certain as anything in the world can be certain, unquote. That came from the acting Secretary of State.

46:58 and was directed to the new president, Harry Truman. Writing on May 19, 1945, as ashes were still smoldering in Berlin, Grew recommended that our policy towards the Soviet Union should immediately stiffen all along the line. It will be far better and safer to have a showdown before Russia can reconstruct herself and develop a tremendous military, economic, and territorial power.

47:27 Above all, it would be most fatal thing, Gru continued, to place any confidence, whatever, in Russia's sincerity because the Soviet Union regards our ethical behavior as a weakness to us and an asset to her. Now, this is coming from the people who were just lying to the Soviet Union about working deals to save Nazis. But they're taking what they were doing, projecting it onto the Soviet Union. And I'm not saying the Soviet Union's a good guy.

47:56 But they are accusing them, creating the footprints for the future Cold War over a port in Italy. Because they intend to use the threat. And in the statement that Groove wrote to Truman, he acknowledges the fact that the Soviet Union in its current state is not a threat at all. He said, do this now before they can become a threat. And yet tomorrow...

48:26 They are going to use the fact that the Soviet Union is going to come over the Fulgham Gap and annihilate Europe in order to justify setting up Operation Gladio and their quote-unquote anti-communist network. They just wrote in a piece of paper to the President of the United States that they are currently not a threat because they've been devastated. Okay.

48:56 Truman remained cautious about the confrontation, but he had voiced suspicions of the Soviet Union as well. The president clearly accepted the thrust of Grew's analysis. Truman resolved to maintain the U.S. and British control of the port after a show of military force against Tito's partisans. Three port points are worth stressing. First, senior U.S.

49:25 officials, including the acting Secretary of State, had concluded as early as May 1945 that a U.S. war with the Soviet Union was as certain as certain could be, and that placing any confidence in anything the Soviet Union said was a fatal mistake. These were not offhanded comments. It was the official policy. Second, the

49:49 Ideological-driven U.S. conviction that Tito was simply a pawn of the Soviet Union expanded what was in reality a local dispute with Tito into a more fundamental clash between superpowers. The Soviets saw their action during the port crisis as a concession to the West and as an illustration of good faith. Churchill grew and Truman read the situation exactly the opposite.

50:16 To them, the outcome of the port seemed to prove the value of getting tough with Moscow, despite the fact that the Soviet unions had conceded the port to the British in the U.S. from the onset. The U.S.-Soviet relationships deteriorated from there. Lastly, the most relevant to the present discussion, the political crisis over the port had immediately and substantially impacted the U.S. policy concerning war criminals.

50:45 and suspected collaborators. Allied war crimes policy remained for most decision makers primarily a tactic to deepen the East-West political rivalry and only secondarily an issue of justice. The showdown with Yugoslavia emerged as a disturbing example of how the weakness of international law concerning crimes against humanity helped shape the creation of the Cold War.

51:12 Tito's government made repeated details requests of the Western allies to turn over scores of Yugoslavian Nazis and collaborators who had fallen into the U.S. and British hands. Most of those requests were straightforward and not controversial. They sought the cabinet officers of the genocidal Croatian puppet government that had murdered thousands of people and that the Germans had installed during the war.

51:43 fascist Ustasi organization, which, by the way, later goes on to become part of the World Anti-Communist League, a fascist organization, and were skinning little kids alive while they were in charge, all that Yugoslavia wanted was those people back to try them for the war crimes they committed against the people in Yugoslavia.

52:09 but the defeated anti-Tito faction in Yugoslavia had powerful friends abroad, not the least of whom was Pope Pius XII. For the Pope, the militantly Catholic Ustasis seemed to be a viable alternative to Tito, and the Pope and leading Croatian clerics provided repeated political and diplomatic support to the Ustasi state in Croatia throughout its rule.

52:36 The Vatican had sought to distance itself from the bloodier atrocities committed. Nevertheless, by the time the Ussassi regime collapsed, the Croatian Catholic hierarchy had blood on its hands because they had cooperated with the genocide in the Balkans.

52:58 Worse, the Vatican compounded its blunder by indiscriminately assisting thousands of the Ustasi criminals to escape Italy to South America. Many of these men, by any standard, committed the most heinous criminal acts of the war. And remember, when we did the World Anti-Communist League presentation on Alpha Warrior Show, the Ustasis.

53:25 Actually, one of the worst war criminals that migrated to the United States did so, even though he was not a priest. He became a priest of his own volition, wore a robe of a made-up religion, and set up a church in the United States. When Tito's government began seeking the transfer of these accused criminals, the Vatican and Catholic Church

53:53 repeatedly intervened to block any cooperation. The U.S. commitments in the Moscow Declaration at Yalta was thrown out the window. Conservative nationalist and monarchist Yugoslavians lobbied on behalf of the Yugoslav leader Draža Mihailović and his forces who had

54:18 vacillated during the war between an alliance with the West against Hitler and an alliance with Hitler, Yugoslav minority leaders, notably the Slovenes, pressured U.S. congressmen on behalf of the old comrades, who records during the war had mixed results. The U.S. government's willingness to cooperate with Tito on war crime matters broke down in 1945 because they didn't want to work with him at all.

54:47 Pressures combined with a geopolitical confrontation over the port, the State Department suspended authorization for the transfer of prisoners to the Yugoslav government on the bureaucratic pretext of the port conflict. Though State continued to publicly affirm U.S. commitments to the Moscow Declaration, they did nothing to comply with it. The U.S. State Department and British Foreign Office refused to cooperate.

55:16 They saw the Yugoslav transfer request as so essential political that it should continue to be dealt with through diplomatic channels rather than anything that applied to the Yalta agreement. The prisoners sought by Yugoslav, the British said, were not war criminals in a proper sense. Some of them were clearly collaborators, but the Yugoslav request also covers others that may...

55:47 be properly considered as political opponents to the present day Yugoslavian government. So it really didn't matter how heinous the crimes were. If they could be seen as an opponent to the current Yugoslav government, we're going to go ahead and protect them. Any Yugoslav request for prisoners should instead be referred to the State Department and Foreign Office where the matter will be held under advisement.

56:16 The obstruction to transfers to the Yugoslav grew so blatant that even the U.S. ambassador in Belgrade, John Cabot, formally protested to Washington. Quote, it is crystal clear, even on the basis of material available in the embassy spiles, that we have flaunted our own commitments and that our own attitude.

56:39 We are protecting not only the war criminals, but also those who are guilty of terrible crimes committed in Yugoslavia, Cabot wrote in a top secret telegram. Quote, I presume we must protect our agents, even though it disgusts me to think that we may be using the same men we are so strongly criticized fascists for using, unquote. He went on, but so far I can ascertain the.

57:08 The record now is despite our commitment and more obligations, we have failed to take effective action against accused Yugoslav war criminals. We have prevented the British from taking effective action, and we have not insisted that Italy take any action. We are apparently conniving with the Vatican in Argentina to get guilty people to havens in Argentina.

57:34 I sincerely hope I am mistaken, particularly regarding the latter point. How can we defend this record? That's what the ambassador to Yugoslavia was writing to the State Department. The State Department legal advisors attached a note to Cabot's message stating that he was misinformed and that he had not received all of the telegrams on the subject. So in other words, the guy on the street watching this all unfold.

58:02 Didn't have a clue what was happening, and we in Washington know better. In a related development, the Yugoslavs formally requested the transfer of Nikola Rusnovic, a leading Ustasi ideologue, whom the wartime Croatian regime had appointed consul general and minister with special responsibilities for organizing the Croatian-Italian fascist counterinsurgency operations.

58:33 against Tito. Shortly after the request, the legal office of the US military government in Europe denied the request without any explanation. The real reason for protecting Rusnovik was now come to light for the first time. Quote, the basis of this decision, which was not made known to the Yugoslav war crimes liaison officer, was the fact that the US military intelligence authorities desired to exploit

59:01 Rusnovic as a source of information, unquote. According to a later declassified note in the State Department's European files of James Riddleberger, it was found attached to the Rusnovic file. Quote, the U.S. political advisor, Robert Murphy, is informed that there is a strong possibility that he will be taken to the United States for this purpose. Under these circumstances, the case for the president.

59:30 may be considered closed, unquote. So again, this is a heinous war criminal brought to the United States. By the spring of 1945, refugees from the Eastern Front found themselves mired in deepening political rivalries between the Soviet Union and the other allies. The indigenous resistance movements in Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, and other European countries. This problem was particularly acute.

59:58 for defectors from the Soviet Union who had fought for the Germans. Hundreds of thousands of Red Army troops had surrendered to Germany, particularly during the first weeks of the war, when the service to Germans became the only means of escape from POW camps. So, in other words, they took up arms against their former country because otherwise they were going to be taken to death labor camps. Many of these prisoners joined the German forces.

1:00:27 excuse me, German forces. The Soviet government contended that under the Moscow Declaration of 1943, the West should immediately deliver any captured defectors back to the Soviet Union to face justice. No formal extradition was necessary. They should not be reviewed. They should just be returned. During the war, U.S. psychological warfare strategists had favored

1:01:14 Why not offer these troops amnesty if they surrendered? Stalin refused. The number of such

1:01:22 in the German forces was very insignificant. And there is a special appeal, Molotov wrote to them, that this not be considered a political issue, just return our citizens. Before the month was out, however, the British captured about 500 Soviet nationals serving in the German army.

1:01:45 Shipped as POWs to England, the new prisoners precipitated a series of East-West political crisis over their location. The British War Cabinet voted to return them to the Soviet Union. They were captured while serving in German military or in paramilitary formations, and the behavior of which in France was often revolting. We cannot afford to be sentimental about this.

1:02:14 Soviet participation and cooperation would be needed to recover thousands of US and British POWs who had once been held by the Germans. British refused to turn over the new prisoners to Stalin. It is no concern of ours what measures any allied government concerning the Soviet government takes with regard to our own nationals, the Soviet government wrote. We surely do not wish to be permanently saddled with a number of men.

1:02:44 The U.S. government reached similar conclusions two months later, but they did not return them. The British decision sidestepped most of the trickier questions concerning what was to be done with these Soviet defectors. What was to be done with those who had not volunteered for German service, such as millions of Soviet civilians whom the Nazis had forced into labor camps? And what of the prisoners in Laktia?

1:03:14 Lithuania and Estonia and parts of Western Ukraine. Since 1939, the Soviet Union had claimed those territories, but the Western allies had not recognized them. The U.S. and British clandestine activities compounded these problems. The September 1944, the Soviet filed a formal protest charging that British intelligence had began recruiting camps for inmates of the inmates from the Soviet Union. Get this.

1:03:43 for anti-communist paramilitary units whose most obvious targets was the Soviet Union. This is in 1944. The Soviets caught the British already creating Gladio units made up of former Russians. The Soviets said the British were also shipping other Soviet POWs to new camps in the US and Canada.

1:04:12 without any Soviet government permission. The anti-communist religious groups with special access to British camps were bombarding the prisoners with propaganda. The Soviet ambassador to the Great Britain complained, frightening the POWs from returning to the Soviet Union. The Western intelligence agencies supposedly secretly recruiting among the POWs and suspected war criminals emerged as a surprising potent issue in the East-West relationships.

1:04:40 almost a year before the end of the war. To the Soviets, Western exploitation of these prisoners seemed to be part of the same pattern that had been seen over and over again in the duplicitous dealings with the Soviet Union. This time, the Soviets formally accused their allies of organizing immigrant armies intended to fight against the Soviet Union at a future date. That was an obvious violation of the treaty. They were well before...

1:05:10 This was well before Germany's defeat and almost three years before the date at which most Western historians placed the emergence of the Cold War. The timing of this complaint, its formality, and the high level of attention it required was an important data point. By the autumn, tens of thousands of former Soviets had fallen into the U.S. and British hands. The American captured at least 28,000 former Soviet troops in German uniform in northern France alone.

1:05:40 The Western Allies' repatriation program moved ahead. Some prisoners bitterly protested, fearing that they would be executed for treason if they returned to the Soviet Union. Others volunteered to go back, believing that Moscow viewed this demonstration of an act of loyalty. That November, the British returned the first shipment of 10,000 prisoners, almost all of whom were former Red Army soldiers who had been defected.

1:06:08 that had defected to the German ranks, but had then been captured by the British. When they volunteered to be repatriated in an ocean convoy to a port for the Soviet Union, only 12 of them clearly objected to being repatriated, but they were put aboard by force.

1:06:37 The first U.S. shipment of 1,179 Russian prisoners left San Francisco on December 29th aboard a Soviet steamer. Seventy of those prisoners protested repatriation, and three of them attempted suicide. Little is known about what happened to them when they got to Russia. The Allied leaders discussed prisoner repatriation at least twice.

1:07:04 Once at Churchill's October 1944 conference with Stalin shortly before the first British shipments, and again at February 1945 Yalta conference, they reached several simple agreements. Each of the powers retained authority to deal with its own nationals, and the Soviet Union would help repatriate 50,000 to 100,000 Western prisoners it had liberated from the Germans, and the West would return all the Soviet nationals. Fairly simple.

1:07:34 But the next three months brought Operation Sunrise, the Taris port crisis, and the breakdown of the U.S.-Yugoslav cooperation in prosecuting war criminals. By July 1945, Soviet suspicions that the Western allies were not complying with any of their agreements was validated. The Soviets soon raised the issue in a meeting with British officials and the U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson.

1:08:01 who was leading the U.S. negotiations towards establishing a military tribunal at Nuremberg. The ongoing Nuremberg planning discussions had become complicated by Russians' assistance that we incorporate agreements concerning turnover of prisoners wanted by the other countries. Jackson reported back to Washington,

1:08:24 All except the international cases are beyond the terms of my authority, except to advise my own government whether we have objections in any of the cases. Jackson was keenly aware of the political ramifications of the prisoner issue. This is likely to become a very delicate issue, he said. You will need to decide what terms to impose and what showing will be required of criminality. The Czechs had already demanded the surrender for trial of Hans Frank.

1:08:52 and other Nazi occupation officials, Jackson noted, and the U.S. needed a uniform policy on this issue. Jackson, who was soon to be the chief U.S. prosecutor at the International Tribunal at Nuremberg, favored abandoning the international trials altogether if the Soviets insisted on the U.S. conforming with the Moscow Declaration on prisoner transfers. The only alternative if the Soviets insist on a public reaffirmation of existing agreements, Jackson wrote.

1:09:22 would be for each of the allies to set up its own tribunals and try prisoners by itself. That approach would be easier for me and faster, but it would be desirable to give an example of unity on the crime problem. So in other words, the Jackson from the Supreme Court is saying, if we have to honor any of our previous agreements, I'm out. We shouldn't even do it. That's just crazy shit.

1:09:53 Okay, that's the end. So, crazy, crazy, crazy shit. Just crazy. And these people are just awful. These people are just awful. They need to be thrown in a pit, burned, built on top of, and then burnt again. Well, luckily they're all dead. Yeah, in the lower part of hell. But you can understand the...

1:10:28 total lack of any credibility on the international stage that the allies had when every single time they showed up at a table with their quote unquote allies, they lied their ass off. They promised them that they would do all of these things and each and every time didn't follow through on any of it.

1:10:55 That's what I found most fascinating about this book. And then everybody scratches their head and says, how did we end up in the Cold War? And it's all the Soviet Union's fault that we even had a Cold War. It's crazy. It just literally shatters everything that you thought you knew about history. When in actual documents that were 40 years later declassified,

1:11:27 They're admitting that they had no intentions of honoring any of the agreements they made. And the guy on the street in Yugoslavia is telling them the heinous crimes these people that they're saving committed against their fellow citizens in Yugoslavia. And the U.S. is like, no, I'm good. We're going to keep them over here with our citizens.

1:11:53 They're basically terrorists, but, you know, they're fascist terrorists, so they're fine. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've been through it before, but, you know, they're just awful. Just saying. Stella in the house! Stella in the house! Hello. Oh, and by the way, can I say my cantaloupe has their first... Oh my gosh, girl, that was fast. So excited. And, um...

1:12:36 I had to pop a squirrel this morning, so Cousin It would be really proud. Well, because he was eating my strawberries. Oh, my God. He violated the one commandment. Yeah, that's definitely a death sentence. You cannot touch the strawberries. Shot him out the bathroom window. Sorry. Sorry, but not sorry. Ron, go ahead. The last part you were talking about with Kiel Hall, it was a good chunk of the Russians who fought.

1:13:08 For the Germans willingly, because they hated Stalin, they'd been persecuted. There were some that did fight just basically out of, it was an opportunity to get out of the detention camps or POW camps. But in the end, any of the ones that did survive, they, as I understand it, what they did was they were on the Eastern Front.

1:13:37 But they did a fighting retreat to surrender to the allies or to surrender to the British and the Americans. The Americans ultimately, they lied to them and told them that they were going to be sending them to another place. But ultimately, it was called Operation Keelhaul. And they ultimately sent them back. And the Russians were very, very unhappy.

1:14:07 Because they'd been double crossed by the by the Americans and British and the vast majority of them actually perished either either they were either executed or they died in gulags. Yeah, there it's hard to get the exact numbers. They were very select. They didn't send them all back. There were quite a few of them, especially the.

1:14:35 I don't want to say the more intelligence ones, but they did bring quite a few of them because they're Russian linguist to the United States. And the British kept several of them, too. I mean, like in the hundreds of people. But yes, there was large amounts of them that eventually get returned. And I read something that after the.

1:15:02 Soviet Union fell, that a lot of the records became available for the disposition of a lot of them. And a lot of them were sent basically to other labor camps up in Siberia, which was basically a death camp as well. Correct. So, yeah. Yeah. And you're right. There were some that were, you know.

1:15:26 Maybe because of intelligence or things that they could value that the Allies saw, they kept them behind. And I mean, how would the Russians know? And when you look at the German soldiers that were essentially captured by the Russians, they were sent to Siberia.

1:15:52 I think there is a story out there of one guy who escaped, and it took him like seven years to get across Russia and ultimately come back. That's actually a German movie that they made, which was actually kind of a heartwarming story. But yeah, very few Germans who fought on the Eastern Front ever came home. Yep. Yep. All right. Anybody else?

1:16:29 All right. I know all these people over here in the Rumble chat wants me to comment on the Trump Elon thing. The only thing I'm going to say is there's no way that it. So you have to kind of think about this logically. Who has had the Epstein files? Who knows what's on those tapes?

1:17:00 Was it the corrupt FBI under Comey? Did they all have access to the Epstein tapes? I mean, supposedly it was the FBI that collected them, right? So if the FBI had those tapes, do you think that if Trump was anywhere in those tapes?

1:17:30 And they tried to coup him four times using lame bullshit that they would not have during his first term. During the four years he wasn't president. Do you not think that at some point that would have been used? That they would not have brought that out as the quote unquote October surprise? So if you start to question the fact that.

1:18:01 what is being said to you in this volley of information, if you can look at some of it and understand that there's a high probability that what is being said is not true, then you have to ask yourself the second question, and that is, what's the purpose of it? Obviously,

1:18:30 there will be a groundswell from the left of producing the Epstein files. Because right now, the only people that are asking for them to be presented are us, right? We're all asking. But do you know who's not asking? Anybody on the proverbial left. Because they know that people that are on their team are on it. Well,

1:18:58 Elon, in this quote-unquote battle, saying that Trump is on them, is going to change that dynamic drastically. And all of a sudden, there's going to be a groundswell of people who never wanted to see the Epstein tapes surface out picketing in front of the White House going, oh my God, you have to release them.

1:19:28 I am not going to say that the conversations are quote unquote fake, but I think there is something else going on behind the scenes. So yeah, everybody's over there going, it's kayfabe, it's kayfabe. Because nothing about it makes sense. And when things don't make sense, you have to zoom out.

1:19:57 And look at what the broader mission is. And to me, it opens the door for everybody who didn't want to see the Epstein tapes to all of a sudden all want to see the Epstein tapes. So just my opinion. And I think it's hilarious. And also it brought up a very important point. So if.

1:20:27 Trump is taking away the tax incentive for electrical vehicles, what justification is there for all of the subsidies to the gas vehicles, right? And there's a lot of the, what is the thing called, the offset that they get because it's a depletable credit.

1:20:54 We've always been told that it's quote unquote fossil fuel. It's rare. So the oil and gas companies, when they pull the oil out of the ground, they get this humongous tax credit and they almost never pay taxes as a result of that because it's a depletion credit. And I told you guys the story when I was in my bachelor's degree at Indiana University. My one of my.

1:21:24 teachers for corporate tax class was a former IRS agent. And he told the story of a sand and rock company that was on the Ohio River that would dredge the river. Now, obviously, dredging the river was good to get bigger ships through it. But he was taking a depletion credit.

1:21:55 And for lots of different reasons, he wasn't doing it correctly. And he explained all of the intricate details of what this thing was and who it all applies to. And so if the gas and the oil industry in general is getting all of these subsidies from the government, if you're not going to subsidize the electrical side of it, how can you subsidize the gas side of it?

1:22:24 And I think that's where that conversation is going to. This is just a way for it to be brought into common conversations. And for some reason, people don't pay attention when it's just discussed by normal people in a normal fashion. But if you bring up these issues in some controversial way, people pay much more attention because they've all been hooked on reality TV.

1:22:52 So if you can have reality TV present these concepts, for some reason, many more people pay attention to it. And whether you like it or not, I think that's what we're seeing. Ron, go ahead. I think you're 100 percent right. I think that the feud between Trump and Musk is theater.

1:23:18 I mean, there's no way in hell that they've come this far and then they're going to have a they're going to have a spat. The fact that they're having a spat, it gives the impression that they're weak and fractured. And it just, you know, Sun Tzu, you know, look weak when you're strong. You know, you see all the you see some of the stuff that Trump tweeted or truth or whatever, but about how how.

1:23:47 Biden had been executed. All roads lead to Obama. I mean, I just feel like we're on the cusp of some crazy, crazy stuff. I wanted to go back real quick and talk about the book just for a second because I'd forgotten that I wanted to discuss this. You know, it's interesting to me that FDR, Hitler, and Mussolini all died within about an 18-day span of each other.

1:24:16 And there are many who believe that, well, I mean, there's, well, FDR was not down with the idea of Israel becoming a state.

1:24:36 becoming an independent country he was not okay with that he didn't want he he wasn't down with that in fact there's there's many articles about that that he you know he talked to the saudis and he was he wasn't okay with that and um uh so i mean there's there's there's some there there's a little bit of um i mean there's no real true hard evidence but

1:24:59 You know, suspicions abound. And I'm just curious. I know you've you've probably read quite a bit. What are your thoughts on? Well, I'm now convinced that Hitler didn't die. I think the information that is coming out of Argentina has that as a huge big question mark because you don't look for dead people. OK, well.

1:25:21 Okay, well, just for the sake of conversation, the date that they said that he did die, which was April 30th, that that day, Musa, that day, those three individuals, whether or not Hitler lived or not is, I don't know the answer to that question. But just for the sake of argument, let's just pretend that he did.

1:25:45 And it's not even about Hitler. This isn't really even about Hitler. It's more about FDR and his position and stance on allowing Israel to become a state. I don't know anything about that. I've never read any of that. I'll post, I'll send you some articles and some stuff about that. Yeah, it's not showed up in any of my books. So, don't know. All along, go ahead. Yeah.

1:26:14 Colonel, related to this character, Mr. Murphy of the State Department, I think he's a very interesting figure, especially in terms of a theme that you have emphasized for some time now, namely the continuity in State Department and CIO, right? And what I mean by that is, I know I mentioned this book before, but it's just...

1:26:42 In some ways, it feels like The Missing Link. It's not available on Kindle, and I kind of, you know, it is a book that came out in 78, like all the good books. In my opinion, academia was, like, by the 1980s, it's much more suited, but nevertheless, it's called A Pretty Good Club, and it's about this so-called big, big group in this little apartment between 1920...

1:27:12 roughly in 1947, right? And it is just like, it's almost like the missing link in the evolution of the CIA. And it definitely, you know, shows continuity with the State Department, not just in terms of, okay, well, what about CIA implants in state, but what about, you know, already CIA-oriented.

1:27:41 state department complaints and origins of cia and um yeah just definitely i put it in the bubble so everyone decided to read this book which by any means messed with scary and also your more recent comment just real quick about you know sort of selling points on these global energy questions you know i personally i'm at a point right now where i have to

1:28:11 kind of like not take sides on the so-called environment, you know, climate narrative, because I haven't read really enough. I've seen strong sides on each argument. Yet, I think one thing that I have, you know, when I was reading books on the global oil industry a few years back, it seems pretty clear.

1:28:38 Whether you agree with the long-term implications of this argument or not, it seems pretty clear there was an oil-funded effort to disparage nuclear power, and possibly for very oil-funded reasons. Whether that necessarily means A, B, and C logical deductions after that oil-funded effort to disparage nuclear power is questionable.

1:29:08 But I think your point about how the energy industry is so massive and is so carteled, yet divided by sectors, as in electricity versus, well, that's a simple piece of it, that they do tend to look for ways to sell their selling points that might be very narrow selling points for their industry to make it seem like it's much more broad for the so-called good of society.

1:29:38 And yeah, thank you. So let me just say a couple of things about you highlighting Robert Murphy. I had looked him up just to check out what his background was. Very interesting guy, as you pointed out, especially where he ends up. He ends up as the chair of the Intelligence Oversight Board under Ford and then remains in that position.

1:30:08 for a little bit, a few months in the Carter administration, which again, if you guys understand, that's kind of the international syndicate's input into the operations that the CIA conducts. So just put that in your hat. He also served in a brand new position that Eisenhower created for him as the Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, which is kind of like a...

1:30:37 a broad-reaching position to influence global efforts. He ends up as the first post-World War II ambassador to Japan in 1952, which is critical because that's in the middle of the Korean War, which is being ran out of Japan.

1:31:06 And it is also at the time where they were setting up the Asian People's Anti-Communist League, of which Japan played a critical role with their two war criminals that would be part of the original apparatus with Korea and Taiwan, Chiang Kai-shek.

1:31:35 In 1949, so this is the time when they're setting up NATO and Operation Gladio. He's the ambassador in Belgium, which we know had a robust program. He was there for three years, and a lot of the mining of Belgian colonies in Africa post-World War II, where there was a shakeup in colonial who's got what in Africa, was going on.

1:32:03 He also was the liaison to the Vichy government, which are the fascists in France. So he has a very interesting background overall in kind of furthering this fascist world international or whatever you want to call it. So if I could just make a quick follow up to your information.

1:32:30 um i think the mentioning of grew is is really important he said the murphy on a kind of you know grew is considered definitely one of these rega group folks from the state department he's very important also in terms of trying to integrate like eurocentric versus eastern centric sort of new world border operatives so that's the connection closely looked at and also you're mentioning the domestic policy role especially with

1:32:59 creation of eisenhower it sounds like it that would be very very close to what um our good friend cd jackson in 1953 and nelson rockefeller taking up his place in 1955 did on the operations coordinating board there's there's going to be very interesting footsies going on with those folks and i think it would be worth looking closer more close back more closely

1:33:25 Yeah. And Gru was integral into getting us into World War Two because he was the ambassador in Japan that supposedly missed all of the preparation for the attack. He's definitely critical to all of this. So, yeah, he comes up in a lot of these stories. So anyway. All right. Anybody else? Stellar, go ahead.

1:33:56 So it's not about the books that you were reading, but I was watching a documentary, like a docudrama from Russia. Anyway, Prince Rudolf, I guess he wanted, I guess prior to World War I, wanted to side with the Russians and I guess France. But it seemed like his prime minister and the dad, the King Olaf, I think that was his name.

1:34:25 Well, anyway, whoever his dad was, went with the side with the church and things. And so it just seemed like, you know, this thing goes really far back, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it does. We're getting pummeled by rain, fluke storm out of. Yeah. Out in Las Vegas, the very few times that it rained. And then it creates floods.

1:34:56 It's really bad. It's really bad. We're getting totally pummeled right now. It's great. We need the rain, but this is crazy. All right. So if no one has anything else, we're going to call it a day. Thank you, everybody, for being on Rumble and everybody here. I appreciate you guys showing up and learning our history. So we'll be back.

1:35:26 tomorrow and tomorrow at noon that's where we rescheduled um the secret society so we'll there will be two shows tomorrow one at noon and one at four so hope to see you guys there take care

Entities here

Nazi Party35 Allen Dulles34 Soviet Union30 West Germany25 Robert Murphy18 U.S. State Department18 Yugoslavia15 Henry Morgenthau Jr.13 United States13 Franklin D. Roosevelt13 United Kingdom12 Joseph Stalin12 Catholic Church10 Josip Broz Tito9 Karl Wolff7 France7 Ildefonso Schuster7 Joseph Grew7 Adolf Hitler7 Operation Sunrise7 Benito Mussolini6 Ustasa6 Operation Keelhaul6 Nuremberg trials6 Operation Gladio5 Smith brothers5 Vichy France5 Trieste5 Robert Jackson5 Harry S. Truman5 Vyacheslav Molotov4 Italy4 Washington, D.C.4 John Moore Cabot4 Joint Chiefs of Staff 10674 World Anti-Communist League3 Moscow Declaration3 Israel3 Winston Churchill3 Japan3

Claims made here

Allen Dulles recruited Smith brothers book_quoted ▶ 1:41

“that inevitably arise in such programs. They were a pair of brothers said to be named Smit, S-C-H-M-I-D-T. Dulles wasn't certain of the details. One of them ran a munitions plant, and the other was a …”

Smith brothers member_of Messerschmitt book_quoted ▶ 1:41

Allen Dulles appointed Robert Murphy book_quoted ▶ 12:30

“This was the purported, quote, vital national interest of which Dulles was speaking. General Eisenhower's political advisor from the State Department, Robert Murphy, became one of the most influential…”

Robert Murphy recruited Admiral Darlan book_quoted ▶ 12:53

“Murphy had risen through the ranks at the State Department after World War I because of his talent for diplomacy and his ability to find common cause between U.S. interests and the old guard in the Eu…”

Henry Morgenthau Jr. attempted_coup_against Robert Murphy book_quoted ▶ 14:21

“began early and grew more and more, as did the opposition between Morgenthau and Murphy. By 1945, Morgenthau was using almost every audience he had with Roosevelt to argue Murphy's dismissal as the U.…”

Henry Morgenthau Jr. proposed Claude Bowers book_quoted ▶ 18:01

“Morgan Thao responded, in order to break the State Department crowd just the way you broke the crowd of admirals when you were Assistant Secretary of the Navy, my suggestion is that you make Claude Bo…”

Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Claude Bowers book_quoted ▶ 18:30

“President thought that it was a wonderful idea, and so he wouldn't forget it. I made him write it down. Morgenthau went on to appeal to Roosevelt's support for his battle with the State Department ove…”

Joint Chiefs of Staff 1067 removed_from_power Deutsche Bank documented ▶ 22:53

“A neo-pagan movement favored by the SS were to be regarded as ardent supporters of Nazism and removed from their positions. The U.S. regulations declared that the corporate leaders of the Deutsche Ban…”

Allen Dulles recruited Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 24:46

“Its implementation is quite another. Robert Murphy took personal charge of the political oversight of this plan immediately, and he made little secret of his inclinations. Meanwhile, the sensitive tas…”

Allen Dulles carried_out_attack Operation Sunrise book_quoted ▶ 25:45

“former Nazi leaders, to advance purported U.S. interests had sweeping implications for the U.S. and Soviet relations, and I would argue that was on purpose. Alan Dulles' pivotal role in this hidden bu…”

Pope Pius XII recruited Ildefonso Schuster book_quoted ▶ 26:12

“Stepping stone for Dulles' post-war intelligence career was his covert diplomacy, bringing together Western intelligence agencies, fugitive Nazis, and certain leading Vatican officials of the day. In …”

Ildefonso Schuster member_of Catholic Church book_quoted ▶ 30:07

“Cardinal Schuster and Monsignor Baccarai, B-I-C-C-H-I-E-R-A-I, had long been among the most prominent clerical supporters of fascism and Mussolini. They were big Mussolini fans. And that came from the…”

Ildefonso Schuster recruited Eugen Dollmann book_quoted ▶ 31:35

“status at the Vatican. There was a lot of history there that is not covered in this book. The Vatican was very loyal to Mussolini, who we know was just like Franco over in Spain. They were fascist. Th…”

Parilli member_of Knights of Malta host_asserted ▶ 32:04

“Parilli, P-A-R-R-I-L-L-I. He was, not surprisingly, a Knights of Malta and a man with strong contacts in both banking and intelligence throughout Italy and Switzerland. And of course, that would have …”

Parilli recruited Allen Dulles host_asserted ▶ 32:04

Karl Wolff member_of Nazi Party documented ▶ 32:39

“and the SS man with a closet full of Italian suits and the skirt-chasing industrialist with a charming smile, as Dahlman put it, became the core of the group determined to deliver Central Europe to th…”

Karl Wolff member_of Nazi Party documented ▶ 33:06

“Open secret negotiations with Dulles during the early spring of 1945. Talks that would have a destructive effect on sensitive U.S.-Soviet relations later on. Wolf had joined the Nazi party well before…”

Allen Dulles carried_out_attack Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 33:06

Karl Wolff headed Nazi Party documented ▶ 33:06

Karl Wolff financed_via IG Farben documented ▶ 33:35

“He managed Himmler's personal slush fund of gifts from German financiers as well as U.S. backers. He handled sensitive contacts that arranged SS transfers of slave labor to IG Farben and Continental O…”

Karl Wolff financed_via Continental Oil documented ▶ 33:35

Averell Harriman member_of Brown Brothers Harriman host_asserted ▶ 35:31

“Moscow, Averill Harriman of Brown Brothers Harriman, one of the people funding and arranging all of this interconnectivity with the U.S., vetoed that. Inviting the Soviets to negotiations would make t…”

Averell Harriman covered_up Operation Sunrise host_asserted ▶ 35:31

Hoyt Vandenberg member_of Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 36:02

“already held by the US and British troops. His was one of the most important voices in the US-Soviet relationship, and his opinion carried the day. Roosevelt and Stalin exchanged increasingly bitter n…”

Lyman Lemnitzer member_of Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 36:02

Vyacheslav Molotov exposed Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 39:21

“Stalin's military intelligence agents in Switzerland were, quote, sure that negotiations did take place and that they ended in an agreement with the Germans, whereby the German commander on the Wester…”

Alfredo Schuster recruited Allen Dulles documented ▶ 39:49

“I think my colleagues are not very far from the truth, he continued. If this perception was wrong, he asked, why were his men being excluded from the talks? Unquote. Cardinal Schuster had proposed tha…”

Allen Dulles funded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 43:36

“than anything else. Operation Sunrise was seriously counterproductive from a strategic and political point of view, but not from Dulles' point of view. He got what he wanted because he's intending to …”

Josip Broz Tito targeted_for_regime_change Trieste documented ▶ 44:37

“But Joseph Tito's well-organized Yugoslav partisans regarded the city and its environment as part of a liberated Yugoslavia, and they opposed the U.S.-British initiative. The inter-allied clash over w…”

Alexander Kirk spied_on Josip Broz Tito host_asserted ▶ 45:32

“the hardline policy against the Soviet Union. Kirk convinced himself and Washington that Tito's forces were acting as a cat's paw of the Soviet Union and that the Yugoslav claim to the port was an exa…”

Joseph Grew funded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 48:26

“They are going to use the fact that the Soviet Union is going to come over the Fulgham Gap and annihilate Europe in order to justify setting up Operation Gladio and their quote-unquote anti-communist …”

Ustasa member_of World Anti-Communist League host_asserted ▶ 51:43

“fascist Ustasi organization, which, by the way, later goes on to become part of the World Anti-Communist League, a fascist organization, and were skinning little kids alive while they were in charge, …”

Pope Pius XII funded Ustasa documented ▶ 52:09

“but the defeated anti-Tito faction in Yugoslavia had powerful friends abroad, not the least of whom was Pope Pius XII. For the Pope, the militantly Catholic Ustasis seemed to be a viable alternative t…”

U.S. State Department covered_up Moscow Declaration documented ▶ 54:47

“Pressures combined with a geopolitical confrontation over the port, the State Department suspended authorization for the transfer of prisoners to the Yugoslav government on the bureaucratic pretext of…”

John Moore Cabot exposed U.S. State Department documented ▶ 56:16

“The obstruction to transfers to the Yugoslav grew so blatant that even the U.S. ambassador in Belgrade, John Cabot, formally protested to Washington. Quote, it is crystal clear, even on the basis of m…”

Robert Murphy recruited Nikola Rusnovic documented ▶ 59:01

“Rusnovic as a source of information, unquote. According to a later declassified note in the State Department's European files of James Riddleberger, it was found attached to the Rusnovic file. Quote, …”

United Kingdom recruited Soviet Union host_asserted ▶ 1:03:14

“Lithuania and Estonia and parts of Western Ukraine. Since 1939, the Soviet Union had claimed those territories, but the Western allies had not recognized them. The U.S. and British clandestine activit…”

United Kingdom carried_out_attack Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:03:43

“for anti-communist paramilitary units whose most obvious targets was the Soviet Union. This is in 1944. The Soviets caught the British already creating Gladio units made up of former Russians. The Sov…”

United Kingdom recruited Soviet Union host_asserted ▶ 1:04:12

“without any Soviet government permission. The anti-communist religious groups with special access to British camps were bombarding the prisoners with propaganda. The Soviet ambassador to the Great Bri…”

United States recruited Soviet Union documented ▶ 1:05:10

“This was well before Germany's defeat and almost three years before the date at which most Western historians placed the emergence of the Cold War. The timing of this complaint, its formality, and the…”

United Kingdom recruited Soviet Union documented ▶ 1:05:40

“The Western Allies' repatriation program moved ahead. Some prisoners bitterly protested, fearing that they would be executed for treason if they returned to the Soviet Union. Others volunteered to go …”

United States recruited Soviet Union documented ▶ 1:06:37

“The first U.S. shipment of 1,179 Russian prisoners left San Francisco on December 29th aboard a Soviet steamer. Seventy of those prisoners protested repatriation, and three of them attempted suicide. …”

Winston Churchill member_of Yalta Conference documented ▶ 1:07:04

“Once at Churchill's October 1944 conference with Stalin shortly before the first British shipments, and again at February 1945 Yalta conference, they reached several simple agreements. Each of the pow…”

Joseph Stalin member_of Yalta Conference documented ▶ 1:07:04

Robert Jackson member_of Nuremberg trials documented ▶ 1:07:34

“But the next three months brought Operation Sunrise, the Taris port crisis, and the breakdown of the U.S.-Yugoslav cooperation in prosecuting war criminals. By July 1945, Soviet suspicions that the We…”

Robert Jackson member_of Nuremberg trials documented ▶ 1:08:52

“and other Nazi occupation officials, Jackson noted, and the U.S. needed a uniform policy on this issue. Jackson, who was soon to be the chief U.S. prosecutor at the International Tribunal at Nuremberg…”

United States recruited Soviet Union host_asserted ▶ 1:13:37

“But they did a fighting retreat to surrender to the allies or to surrender to the British and the Americans. The Americans ultimately, they lied to them and told them that they were going to be sendin…”

United States recruited Soviet Union host_asserted ▶ 1:14:35

“I don't want to say the more intelligence ones, but they did bring quite a few of them because they're Russian linguist to the United States. And the British kept several of them, too. I mean, like in…”

Robert Murphy member_of U.S. State Department host_asserted ▶ 1:26:14

“Colonel, related to this character, Mr. Murphy of the State Department, I think he's a very interesting figure, especially in terms of a theme that you have emphasized for some time now, namely the co…”

Robert Murphy member_of President's Foreign Intelligence Oversight Board host_asserted ▶ 1:29:38

“And yeah, thank you. So let me just say a couple of things about you highlighting Robert Murphy. I had looked him up just to check out what his background was. Very interesting guy, as you pointed out…”

Robert Murphy appointed Japan host_asserted ▶ 1:30:37

“a broad-reaching position to influence global efforts. He ends up as the first post-World War II ambassador to Japan in 1952, which is critical because that's in the middle of the Korean War, which is…”

Robert Murphy member_of World Anti-Communist League host_asserted ▶ 1:31:06

“And it is also at the time where they were setting up the Asian People's Anti-Communist League, of which Japan played a critical role with their two war criminals that would be part of the original ap…”

Robert Murphy appointed Belgium host_asserted ▶ 1:31:35

“In 1949, so this is the time when they're setting up NATO and Operation Gladio. He's the ambassador in Belgium, which we know had a robust program. He was there for three years, and a lot of the minin…”

Nelson Rockefeller member_of Operations Coordination Board host_asserted ▶ 1:32:59

“creation of eisenhower it sounds like it that would be very very close to what um our good friend cd jackson in 1953 and nelson rockefeller taking up his place in 1955 did on the operations coordinati…”