The Colonel’s Corner The Devil’s Chessboard Part 5

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0:00 Hello, Bridget. How are you today? Good afternoon, Colonel. Doing well. And you? How are you? I'm very good. I have to share this with you guys. So I bought my grandson a bed last weekend.

0:23 It finally got delivered this week and my husband just went to pick up the mattress to go in the bed. It's a floor bed that has like padded everything around it. I think I shared that with you guys. Well, it's up, the mattress is there and he gets in it and it has like a Bluetooth capability built into the bed. And so I...

0:48 sent and my daughter sent me a picture of him in the middle of the bed and so I just sent a thing back to her saying I love you guys um and she says I said what a precious baby he was and she says that he is he's simply amazed that his bed can play the baby sharks oh that's funny I said of course his Nona thinks of everything Nona is a superhero that's so funny okay so yep

1:20 Life's good. All right. So we're on part five of the devil's chess board in the chapter called Sunrise, which was Operation Sunrise, which gave birth to Operation Gladio. Okay. And we left off towards the end of the chapter with Wolf being, you know, saved from the hangman's noose by Alan Dulles.

1:50 And it says one of the first actions that he took after he was liberated was to demand special treatment. He told everybody that the U.S. government owed him $45,000 for all of the belongings that was looted from his villa when he was captured. Ma'am, the rumble is still showing the intro. Okay. Have you gone live over there? Yeah. All right.

2:18 I didn't click the last button, sorry. Oh, okay. All right. So let's wait just a second for it to... There we go. All right. So the first thing he did was demand a payment of $45,000, meaning General Wolfe, for his belongings that didn't accompany him when he was arrested by the U.S. forces in Italy. And Dulles wrote a note saying, between you and me,

2:48 to his Swiss counterpart, Max Weibel, KW doesn't realize how lucky he is that he is not spending the rest of his life in jail. And his wisest policy would be to keep fairly quiet about the loss of his underwear. He might easily have lost more than a shirt. And it goes on to say that he was an aging SS veteran who had returned to the advertising industry

3:20 that he had abandoned two decades ago to work for Hitler, landing a job in a weekly magazine, courtesy of Alan Dulles, who had helped pave the return to civilian life because during this time, there was an employment ban on hiring former Nazi people.

3:50 He quickly proved to be the man on his way up with a circle of friends he had made as Himmler's banker. Wolf found it easy to establish contacts within advertising departments of leading German companies because they were not denazified. As his sales soared, so did his commissions. By 1953, he was prosperous enough to buy a manor for his family on a lake.

4:19 Success emboldened him. He began talking more openly about his past to friends and journalists. He revealed that 10 days before Hitler's suicide in Berlin, he had promised him to the rank of senior general in the SS, the military wing of Himmler's empire. The general wanted it both ways. He wanted to be seen as one of the clean, honorable generals, but his pride was overtaking that. Wolf's ambivalence was highlighted again.

4:49 when he told a newsletter published by an SS veteran that Hitler had known about and completely approved of Operation Sunrise. Wolf, regarded with disdain by his former SS colleagues for his role in Sunrise, might have been trying to ingratiate himself with his old Nazi brethren. But it's a dubious claim.

5:14 Eugene Dolman undoubtedly came closer to the truth when he wrote in his memoirs that a fading Hitler, pumped full of drugs during his final meeting in the bunker, gave Wolf a vague sort of permission to establish contacts with the Americans. By the mid-50s, the increasingly self-assured Wolf convinced the Germans needed his leadership and became politically active.

5:42 In 1953, he took a lead role in establishing the Reichsreif, a neo-fascist party in 1956. He began organizing an organization of former SS officers. The old ideas came slithering out once more. The demonization of non-Germanic races and the Bolshevik menace. Karl Wolf was eager to return center stage.

6:12 And who better to help him than his American patron? Wolf had stayed in touch with Dulles through the U.S. Occupation Authority stationed in Germany, passing him notes and books related to Operation Sunrise that he thought Alan Dulles might find interesting. After his release from prison, Wolf had developed a business, a side business with U.S. intelligence agencies,

6:43 Frenchie, Grombach, who had served in army intelligence. Grombach gathered information from a network of former SS officers and ex-Nazis throughout Europe, peddling it to the CIA, State Department, and corporate clients. But Wolfe knew that his best connection to American intelligence was Alan Dulles himself, who by 1953,

7:13 was the CIA director. On May 20, 1958, March Wolfe marched confidently into the U.S. Embassy in Bonn and asked to see the two CIA officers he knew. Informed that those agents were no longer there, Wolfe was escorted into the office of the CIA station chief. As usual, he thoroughly charmed his host, who later reported that he was the most polite, most ingratiating for a former general.

7:43 Wolf, the station chief added, was sporting a tan, which looked as though he had been in the Alps and was prosperous. Wolf informed his CIA host that he wanted to visit the U.S. He wanted to see his daughter, who had married an American, and his son, who was residing there. Isn't that comforting to know? He did not mention the other person he wanted to see, but obviously it was Dulles.

8:15 Chatting with the Bond station chief, Wolf got to the point. He wanted assurances that he would have no trouble securing a visa for his visit. Informed about his old wartime collaborators, informed about his old wartime buddy, Dulles pulled strings on his behalf in Washington. But the two men were never reunited in America that we know of.

8:44 Carl Wolf's name still stirred too much unease in Washington. Moving to the next chapter, rat lines. Carl Wolf was not the only prominent SS officer who was greatly benefited from Dulles' sunrise. In the fall of 1945, former SS Colonel Eugene Dolman, Wolf's principal intermediary during the sunrise negotiations, found himself living in a gilded cage in Rome.

9:17 The apartment, which was located on a thoroughfare, was a horse-shaped street in the city's exclusive Heroli district. It contained few distractions for the bored dolmen. But he did discover an extensive literary collection of sadomasochistic in nature left behind by the former tenant, a German.

9:47 Mistress of Mussolini's. And he whiled his time by reading it. Dahlman was not an entirely free man. He was still a guest of U.S. intelligence officers. But even though he remained under close surveillance compared to his accommodations after he and Carl Wolf were arrested in May, he lived a luxurious lifestyle on our dime. Before he was spirited off to Rome by the...

10:17 Strategic Services Unit, which is kind of the middle between the OSS and the CIA. The agency, let's see, spoiled by years of the best Italian cuisine, Dahlman found the rations given to him so distasteful that he considered mounting a hunger strike that had been started by a fellow POW, Grunren Himmler, the late Himmler's daughter.

10:49 Then he was transferred to a POW camp in Escona on a lake where the daily fare was even more objectionable. And the inmates were forced to sleep in tents that floated away in heavy downpours. Dolman later had the nerve to compare that camp to Dachau. Relief for Dolman came when he was transferred to a low security prison ran by British military in Rimini.

11:22 And for those of you who remember our very first sessions, this is the camp that they put everybody in so they could escape, so they could be ratlined out of Italy, supposedly under the security of the UK. One night, Dolman found it remarkably easy. One American intelligence agent would call it suspiciously easy to cut through the wires encircling Remini and flee to Milan.

11:55 where he knew he could find sanctuary. Here, Dolman presented himself to a well-connected cardinal of the Catholic Church, Alfredo Schuster, in his palazzo adjoining an enormous Gothic cathedral. Dolman found, as one of the Rome's more elegant peacocks during the SS glory days, now sat before the cardinal.

12:28 in a filthy raincoat, looking the worst for wear. As they sipped liqueur from glasses, Dolman reflected on how the Cardinal always put him in mind of a delicate alabaster statue. But Schuster, who had worked for Wolfe's SS team on the Sunrise deal, was not refined at all. So this Cardinal of the Catholic Church was working for the Nazis. The Wiley

12:58 cardinal was part of a Vatican elite that had collaborated with Mussolini's fascist regime. He was inclined to help Dolman now to avoid an embarrassing war crimes trial. Besides, Schuster thought that men like Dolman might still play a useful role in Italy. He hoped to recruit the former SS officer in the campaign against the church's nemesis, the Italian communist. Dolman, who was

13:29 conniving by nature, but not political, was uninterested in the cardinal's plot, but he was in no position to quibble. He allowed himself to be safely hidden away in a church-run asylum for wealthy drug addicts, where his fellow inmates included a fading Italian diva and an emotionally fragile duchess. As he waited there,

13:56 Dolman decided to sample some of the forbidden fruit that the screen siren kept stashed in her room, heroin. For a time, Dolman, who had much to forget about in his life, was plagued by detailed memories. Salvation came in the form of James Jesus Angleton, a rising young star in U.S. intelligence who had run the X2, which is intelligence branch.

14:27 of the OSS counterintelligence in Italy during the war and had stayed behind to use his wiles against the quote-unquote communist threat. After tracking down Dolman in Milan's asylum, Angleton sent a big U.S. Army Buick with a chauffeur to pick him up and drive him to Rome where he installed Dolman in a safe house. Counterintelligence was the spycraft's deepest mind game. It was not just fighting

14:57 the enemy's next move in advance and blocking them, but learning to think like him. Not yet 30, Angleton was already being talked about in American and British intelligence circles as a master in his field. He had been educated in British prep schools and at Yale, where he had edited the avant-garde poetry magazine, Ferriccio.

15:23 and courted the likes of Ezra Pound and E.E. Cummings as contributors. And he seemed to bring the artist's intuition to his profession, but he could not get lost in the convolutions of his own fevered mind, which drove him to prowl the streets of Rome late at night in a black overcoat. Angleton was as gaunt as a saint. His wife, Cicely,

15:54 would call him El Greco Face. His colleagues called Angleton the cadaver. He smoked incessantly and had coughing fits. Angleton must have struck the colonel as yet another strung out soul, but Angleton's addiction was of a more ideological nature. The young spy explained his vision of the new world. Dolman felt

16:22 bound to listen politely since Angleton had gone to the trouble of saving him from the drug-infested Cardinal Schuster's madhouse. But Dolman had heard it all before, from Hitler and his SS overlords, how Bolshevikism must be crushed for the new world to be born, why there must be no rules in a clash like this between civilization and barbarity.

16:52 Angleton, however, was lost in his own passion. He had found strong support for his views from Alan Dulles in the months after the war. Dulles lingered in Europe, hoping that Truman would appoint him commander of the shadow war against the Soviet Union. In October 1945, Dulles visited Rome with Clover, ostensibly to revive their marriage after the strains of being separated during the war and all of his affairs.

17:22 But he had another mission as well, to organize the Italian front in the Cold War, i.e. Operation Gladio. Angleton, who was wired into the Vatican, helped arrange a secret meeting for Dulles and Pope Pius XII, who had mutually beneficial arrangements with Mussolini's regime. Angleton looked up to Dulles as a mentor, a powerful figure in the mold of his father.

17:54 James Hugh Angleton, who was an international businessman who had paved his son's path into the spy trade and continued to play an influential role in his life. Dulles would remain a strong paternal figure for Angleton throughout their intelligence careers. In Rome, the two men conferred about what to do about what they view.

18:25 as the Red Challenge. This included recruiting agents without concern for their fascist past. Dolman was high on their list as recruitment target. His continental sophistication and network of contacts, Dolman might prove a valuable espionage asset on the strategic front lines in Italy as well as Germany.

18:55 As Angleton sat with him in the safe house, the American opened a bottle of scotch that he had brought along with him. Dolman was filled with utter contempt for his guest. He was talking like a young university lecturer who dabbed in a bit of espionage. As for Dulles, Dolman had only contempt for his benefactor, whom he had later called a leather-faced Puritan.

19:26 Archangel, who had fled from the European, like the Europeans that had fled on the Mayflower. That was the connotation that he was making. He would ridicule the way Dulles had misrepresented himself at their secret sunrise meetings in Switzerland as President FDR's personal emissary, delivering little speeches to Wolfe and Dolman about how delighted FDR supposedly was about the SS officers.

20:05 While Dolman was unimpressed with Angleton's political lecture, he did appreciate the fake identity card the young spy gave him. The document, which identified him as an Italian employee of an American organization, afforded Dolman the confidence to venture into the streets of his beloved Rome without fear of being molested by the authorities. Sprung from his apartment, the colonel found himself drawn to all of his favorite haunts. They were not impressed with that.

20:35 So these former business owners in Italy, and by the way, Angleton's dad owned the franchise of the National Cash Register company in America, which is why Angleton was so familiar with Europe and Italy specifically. And it was used to spy on businesses for prior to World War II.

21:03 because obviously if you're in businesses and their cash registers, you had the ability to enter these facilities anytime you wanted. It was just a good non-technical, and I'm not saying they didn't have obviously electrical or electronic cash registers, but it was a good way to gain entrance into all of the businesses, which Angleton's dad was heavily involved in.

21:33 Dolman decides he's going to an old jewelry store. They were not impressed with him at all because during the war, they had not only imprisoned Italians, but had exported all of the Italian Jewish people to Germany. And the store owner who immediately recognizes him because he used to go there all the time, looked at him and,

22:06 contempt, like he wished he was dead. He couldn't believe he was walking back in a store. And he says to him, oh my gosh, I thought you'd, I was afraid you'd be killed. And Dolman looked at him like, you didn't care if I'd be killed or not. Dolman always liked to give the impression that he was too cosmopolitan to indulge in the Nazi anti-Jewish mania.

22:38 courtesy. It sickened him, he said. He immediately left the store. Dolman had a love affair with Italy. Dolman had arrived in Italy two decades earlier, long before the war, as a young graduate student in Renaissance history. The young German was well-educated and fluent in Italian. Dolman went completely native, becoming Eugeno instead of Eugene. He had also embraced

23:09 He was also embraced by German diplomatic set in Rome who appreciated his nuanced grasp of the local language and his entree into the aristocratic circles of Rome. His bilingual skills were increasingly in demand as the two countries' fates grew more closely linked.

23:40 by the name of Donna Victoria, who was the reigning queen of Roman salons. She had soirees that everybody wanted to go to. In the past, they had even been frequented by Mussolini family members. In Naples, he was invited to a midnight entertainment at a duchess house in her mansion.

24:10 The duchess, he noted, had a simultaneously charming and inhuman mouth. He later learned the story of her deformity. She liked to prowl Naples rough waterfront bars for her handsome henchmen, replacing them in quick succession. However, one of them attacked her.

24:35 to prepare Dolman for the life he began when he joined the SS, where he would rise to become the link between Hitler and Mussolini. Dolman had tried to make sense of why he had enlisted in Hitler's Nazi core. It wasn't a political ambition for him. It wasn't monetary reward. Was it the way he looked at his trimly tailored,

25:06 USS uniform possibly. Vanity was always a factor for Dolman. Dolman was always up to date in the latest Rome gossip. He was at the Hitler side whenever Hitler descended on Italy. And he was there whenever Mussolini and his top ministers left and went to Germany. By serving as this essential diplomatic link between Germany and Italy,

25:34 that his sojourn into the adopted land would not be interrupted by the coming war. Dolman would point to this as the primary reason that he had made that bargain and joined the Nazis. The man who kept the Axis partners smoothly aligned with his impressive language and social skills was a highly educated homosexual who enjoyed trading

26:01 the gossip about personalities who ruled Germany and Italy. Dolman was, in short, precisely the type of person Nazis sent to the gas chamber. But instead, Hitler's interpreter was free to attend gay and lesbian orgies in Venice. And he had had the pleasure of taking Eva Braun shopping when she decided to visit Italy. Dolman was fond of her.

26:32 She was known throughout the world as German's strongman mistress. Dolman, who says in this book that Eva Braun said they didn't have a sexual relationship. And Dolman even implies that Hitler himself had other sexual desires. Okay, moving on. The Nazis.

27:09 Official Dolman, most dreaded escorting around Italy was Reinhard Heinrich, Himmler's top executioner. Now there was a man clearly meant to be murdered by someone or other, Dolman observed later. His demonic personality, a Lucifer with cold blue eyes. One night, Heinrich demanded that Dolman take him to Naples' finest brothel.

27:39 And he goes into basically how he, with no emotion whatsoever, selects the women and was like basically dead inside. History has come to judge Eugene Dahlman as a self-serving opportunist who prostituted himself to

28:03 According to one historian, Dolman knew that he was at high risk of prosecution. The Nuremberg trials where Foreign Minister Joachim van Ribbentrop and Ambassador Franz von Papen were both convicted firmly established that diplomats like Dolman would be tried. Dolman was perhaps at even greater risk in Italy, whose passions had ran high.

28:31 regarding Nazi massacres of Italian citizens, such as the famous slaughter of 335 prisoners at a cave system near Rome in March of 1944. After the war, Dolman claimed that he had once even rescued several Italian partisans who were being burned alive by fascist thugs. Regardless of his degree of guilt or innocence, Dolman was most visible symbol

29:01 of Nazi occupation in Rome, especially in the elite circles. Italians were all too familiar with the numerous newspaper photos of him, with Mussolini, at the Vatican, with Hitler. In the fall of 1945, as he strolled around Rome with his fake ID, Dolman was acutely aware that if he fell into the wrong hands, he'd be lynched.

29:27 Dolman's anxieties were heightened when American agents installed two former SS colleagues in his Rome apartment, including Colonel Walter Roth, R-A-U-F-F, who had served as Carl Wolf's second-in-command in northern Italy, because he knew that the hideout might now attract increasing interest of Nazi hunters. Dolman, who had regarded Roth

29:55 as one of the most disagreeable acquaintance he had ever met. In 1941, Roth had overseen the development and operation of the fleet of Black Raven vans, which were basically the mobile death camps. And the CIA, soon to be CIA, wanted to save him too. So they put him in a safe house. Dahlman and his fellow SS escapees had been tracked for months.

30:30 by the 428th U.S. Army Counterintelligence Corps, a detachment of Nazi hunters based in Rome. Major Leo Pagnotta, the Italian-American who was second in command of the Counterintelligence Corps, was a sharp investigator. He figured out that Dolman, who knew it was unwise to show his face too much on the streets, would sooner or later reconnect with his Italian chauffeur who had driven him around.

30:59 During his SS days. Dolman did in fact do that. But Pagnotta. Had not gotten to him first. Making him an offer. He couldn't refuse. If you see. But sorry. Pagnotta had gotten to the chauffeur. And made him an offer. That he couldn't refuse. He said to him. If you see Dolman. And you don't tell me. I'll arrest you. And shoot you. The chauffeur quickly gave up Dolman. Pinpointing when and where.

31:31 He'd be dropped off for a movie. As Dolman was sitting, waiting in the police station holding room, the door suddenly opened and Major Pagnotta walked in. The two men took an immediate dislike to each other. Dolman was predispositioned to look down on Americans, who he found in general to be crass, illiterate, a Mongolized people. To make matters worse, this was a rather fact.

32:02 American, Dolman thought. The situation appeared bleak for Dolman. His next stop would be Nuremberg, but he knew that he had an ace up his sleeve. Dolman took out a piece of paper from his pocket and handed it to Pagnotta. Please call this number. Ask for Major Angleton. He knows who I am. Major Pagnotta was very familiar with Major Angleton.

32:28 In fact, Pagnotta's team of Nazi hunters was headquartered in the same building with Angleton's rival intelligence operation, the Strategic Services Unit X-2 Branch. Pagnotta's counterintelligence army unit was on the first floor, Angleton was on the second floor, and British intelligence was on the third floor. How convenient. Pagnotta and his men didn't trust Angleton. They thought he was a devious and arrogant son of a bitch, in the words of

32:59 Pagnotta's aide, William Gowan. Angleton seemed to work more closely with the Brits than he did the army counterparts, because of course he did. Before transferring to Rome in 1944, Angleton had been stationed in London, where his X-2 unit was overseen and worked for the British intelligence. Some U.S. intelligence units, such as Leo Pagnotta's,

33:28 were determined Nazi hunters, but other operatives such as Angleton had very different objectives. The spy versus spy atmosphere made Pagnotta's investigative work extremely complicated. As Pagnotta tracked top Nazi figures in Italy, many of whom had escaped from the British-ran Rimini camp on purpose, it became clear to him

33:56 that they were working at cross purposes. One of the most notorious fugitives, SS Captain Carl Haas, H-A-S-S, who had overseen the Cave Massacre, mysteriously escaped every time Pagnotta's team tracked him down and turned him over to the British, who were the occupation authorities in Italy. Finally, after his fourth arrest, Haas escaped for good. It was not until many years later that Haas was tracked down where?

34:25 in Argentina and extradited to stand trial in Italy for his role in the massacre. Haas received a life sentence, but by then he was an old man. And because of that and his failing health, he didn't have to go to prison. Unsurprisingly, after capturing Dolman, Pagnotta decided to hang on to him, placing him in a U.S. military prison in Rome instead of handing him over to the British.

34:57 Dolman was a cooperative prisoner, readily revealing the address of his apartment. When Pagnotta's team raided the apartment, they narrowly missed catching Dolman's famous roommate, Walter Roth, who managed to flee Tabari on the Adriatic coast, where he boarded a ship for Egypt, the next stop in the Nazi exterminator's long, winding rat line. Roth would cap his bloody career.

35:27 Where? In Chile, where he became a top advisor to Dina and Pinochet. You know, where they had the colony of dignity and the terrorist training camps and the child pedophilia. Yeah, he was one of the top advisors as a Nazi to Pinochet, who was installed by the CIA.

35:56 When Rolf died in 1984 at the age of 77 after successfully rebuffing years of extradition attempts, because, you know, we'll just kill the new president that would be the most likely to extradite him in the overthrow of the Chilean government. Hundreds of aging Nazis flocked to his funeral in Santiago, where he was laid to rest with several salutes of Heil Hitler. Pagnotta did snare another fugitive who was living at the apartment.

36:27 SS Eugene Winner, W-E-N-N-E-R, who had also played a part in Operation Sunrise Maneuvers. It soon dawned on Pagnotta's team that Angleton was operating a safe house, a stream of Nazi fugitives who were connected to Sunrise and other Dulles operations. They even traced the car driven by Dolman's chauffeur to Angleton's father, who kept a villa nearby.

36:56 No one would get to know the deeply clever ways of Angleton in Rome better than William Gowan, who at age 18 was one of the youngest members of Pagnotta's crew of Nazi hunters. It was only a matter of time before Jim Angleton, who made it his business to meet important people in Rome, crossed paths with Bill Gowan, who despite his youth was known to be well-connected. Gowan's father,

37:25 Franklin was a career diplomat who had served under Ambassador Joseph Kennedy in London and was currently the assistant to Myron Taylor, the former U.S. Steel Chairman, whom FDR had appointed to be a special representative at the Vatican during the war. Gowan's family had money. One of his ancestors had been the president of the Philadelphia Stock Exchange, but they were by

37:55 tradition Democrats. Roosevelt was fond of Franklin Gowan, whom he regarded as one of the few blue-blooded members of the diplomatic corps he could trust. The younger Gowan brought a special sense of mission to his army counterintelligence job. His family owned property in Italy and had deep roots there. His grandfather Morris was living in Florence when the war broke out. Although he was Episcopalian,

38:25 Morris Gowan was denounced as a Jew and put on a train for Auschwitz. When the Germans realized he was an American, he was taken off the train in Northern Italy and put in an SS camp where the 77-year-old man died in July of 1944. Of what his death certificate said was exhaustion. Bill Gowan's family had a number of Jewish family friends in Italy.

38:54 who suffered similar fates. When I got to Rome in 1946 as a young officer, he later said, I didn't need to read about the Nazi terror. My family lived it. All in all, young Bill Gowan had a pedigree that Angleton clearly found both appealing and threatening. Gowan's dedication as a war crimes investigator posed a problem for Angleton, who viewed Nazi fugitives like Dolman and Roth in more pragmatic terms.

39:24 The Gowan's family Italian background also infringed on Angleton's turf. I think between the father and son, the Angletons thought they had a lock on Italy and the Vatican, Gowan observed. Jim Angleton was very jealous of my family because he wanted to have a monopoly in Italy and anything that might threaten him had to be taken care of. Angleton made a point of keeping Gowan close in Rome.

39:50 In early 47, Gowan and his father were invited to an Italian wedding of Angleton's sister, Carmen, when Angleton chatted up the younger Gowan, insisted they go to lunch. They went to Angleton's favorite spot, not ironically, a Jewish restaurant near Rome's once thriving Jewish area. Angleton was fond of the house specialty.

40:20 He took charge of ordering when the waiter arrived. To Gowan's surprise, however, Angleton, who presented himself as an expert on all things Italian, had no master of the language, and it was Gowan that ended up having to order for them. The lunch companions, like Gowan, always made Angleton uneasy. Gowan, whose family was filled with bankers, lawyers, diplomats, and ministers, had a solid...

40:50 social register background. And despite his young age, he was already a man of the world. He had traveled all over Europe to diplomatic posts with his father. Gowan seemed bred for the top tier. Angleton was also raised in wealth, but his father, Hugh, was not the mainline type. He was a self-made man. And his mother was from Mexico, where

41:21 Angleton Sr. met her while he was on General Black Jack Pershing's 1916 expedition to capture Pancho Villa. He rose to the top ranks of U.S. intelligence establishment and remained something of an outsider to the WASPI world.

41:43 Gowan might have been Angleton's social superior with much better connections to Roosevelt and Truman administration, but in the end, it was Angleton who prevailed at the spy games. In May of 1947, after Dolman had spent several bleak months in prison in Rome, Angleton succeeded in outwitting Pagnotta and Gowan and getting the former SS colonel transferred to a US military prison in Frankfurt.

42:12 where he was safe from the wrath of the Italian political enemies and prosecutors. The clever Angleton had Dolman smuggle out of his Roman cell on a stretcher. In Germany, Dolman was soon switched to even more agreeable accommodations in a guest house in the countryside, which he shared with former Nazi VIPs.

42:39 sets as the propagandist Axis Sally, and Otto Skorzeny. Otto Skorzeny. Imagine that. The people that you are recruiting to set up Operation Gladio just so happens to end up at the same place as the soon-to-be trainer for Operation Gladio, Otto Skorzeny. Yeah. By November,

43:10 After the U.S. military released him from incarceration, Dolman was a completely free man. There was sharp disagreement over suspected war criminals like Dolman within the U.S. military command overseeing occupation. General George Price Hayes, a decorated officer who led the 10th Mountain Division assault on Monte Cassino during the Allied Italian campaign and commanded the 2nd Infantry Division in Omaha Beach.

43:39 on D-Day was angered by the treatment that Dulles' Sunrise Nazis received. Hayes, who became a high commissioner in the U.S. occupation zone in Germany, pointed out in a November 1947 memo that it was the U.S. Army that was responsible for the surrender of the Nazi troops in Italy, not Dulles. Hayes was adamantly opposed to granting amnesty to possible war criminals and war profiteers like Dolman.

44:08 which he observed would condone their crimes without proper examination. Nonetheless, by 1947, many of the American military hierarchy shared the Dulles-Angleton view that this anti-communist monster that they were building had to be fed, and it was going to be fed with fascist war criminals. Even after securing Dulles' release, Angleton remained nervous about Bill Gowan.

44:35 The young man knew too much about Angleton's stream polling on behalf of Dolman and other Nazi fugitives who had been harbored at his safe house. Angleton suspected that Gowan's counterintelligence unit might keep extensive files on the rat lines that had allowed Sunrise collaborators like Dolman and Ralph to escape. He was determined to see what those files were, an interest undoubtedly shared by Alan Dulles.

45:05 In November 1947, as Dolman walked free, the U.S. military moved to shut down the Nazi hunting operation in Rome. That month, Bill Gowan hopped a train for Frankfurt, which was to be his new base of operations. By the time the slow-moving train crawled into the Frankfurt station, it was after midnight. A jeep driven by a soldier with...

45:28 Counterintelligence insignia on his uniform was waiting for Gowan, who threw his duffel bag into the vehicle and jumped in. One of the few buildings left, miraculously untouched under the Allied bombing campaigns, was the IG Farben complex, and not by mistake, which now served as the headquarters of the Supreme Allied Command. The city's demolished landscape was illuminated only by scattered pinpoints of light.

45:58 The driver said, I guess you're tired. You'll want to go back to the hotel. Gowan nodded. But instead of heading towards the hotel, the soldier drove deeper into the city ruins. Now the only lights came from the jeep's headlights. Gowan asked him, where are we going? I just wanted to show you something. There was nothing to be seen but rubble. I've been to Germany before. I just want to go to bed, Gowan said. But the jeep kept creeping along. Suddenly, the driver

46:27 halted the vehicle, jumped out and told Gowan to follow him. Gowan didn't like the situation. He was armed and I wasn't. I was alarmed and I'm normally not scared, he said. So he walked slowly behind him. Gowan didn't know how far they walked when the soldier abruptly turned around, headed back to the Jeep. When they got to the vehicle, Gowan immediately realized his duffel bag was missing. I wasn't dumb enough to ask him where my bag was. I knew what had happened. I knew what they were looking for.

46:57 As it turned out, there was no intelligence files in Gowen's stolen bag, but the story wasn't over. In January 1948, and keep in mind, these are our own people doing this to our own people. In January 1948, when Gowen was still stationed in Germany with Army intelligence, he received a transatlantic phone call from a syndicated columnist, Drew Pearson. He was an influential Washington journalist, and I'm going to use air quotes there.

47:27 told Gowan that he was working on a hot scoop and that Gowan was at the center of it. Pearson was going to report that a fugitive from war crimes charges in Hungary, where he had worked as an anti-Semitic propagandist for a fascist Arrow Cross party, had slipped into the United States illegally with the help of a young Nazi hunter by the name of Bill Gowan.

47:57 Pearson claimed he had proof, documents that showed Gowan had worked closely with this guy, Farik Fata, on various covert missions. As he listened to Pearson, Gowan was so flabbergasted that he didn't know what to say. Pearson's exclusive story ran in newspapers across America on January 18th and was amplified in radio broadcast from coast to coast.

48:26 There was some truth to Pearson's report. Gowan did indeed know who he was from his days in Rome when he had used the Hungarian as an informer to help track down Croatian fugitive Ante Pavelac. He was the fascist leader to the Ustasi movement. Now, the irony, I gotta stop here. The irony of this, because we found out when we were doing our research that a lot of these Ustasi guys

48:56 the CIA actually brought into the United States. One of them dressed up as a priest and later claimed to be a priest and pretended to be a priest. And he was a cold-blooded killer that worked with the CIA or the OSS at the time. The blatant dishonesty of these people is crazy. So this Ante Pavlik,

49:25 had led a genocidal campaign in the Balkans during the war that was so extreme that he had to be constrained even by the Nazis. With the help of Vasta, Gowan had traced him to a villa atop a hill. He was under the protection of Croatian officials in the Vatican and other fascist sympathizers. There's that Vatican again.

49:56 From his villa, he was able to sneak into nearby safe houses through a series of secret passages that were honeycombed throughout the area. Gowan was perfectly willing to rely on a lesser criminal to gain a bigger target. But he had had nothing to do with providing him special State Department security clearances and his slipping into the U.S. But the CIA OSS did.

50:22 That sleight of hand was likely performed by none other than Frank Wisner, a close collaborator of Dulles' from their OSS days, who had recently been appointed as head of the State Department's Office of Policy Coordination that would later be combined as the clandestine service in the CIA. And Frank Wisner was in all of that area during the war as well.

50:52 Hungary, all of those areas. That was Frank Wisner's area of expertise. But it was Gowan that was going to take the fall for the escapade. It did not take him long to figure out who was responsible for setting him up. Pearson had been fed the fake story by Raymond Roca, R-O-C-C-A, Angleton's deputy in Rome. Pearson's expose effectively ended Gowan's

51:18 budding intelligence career, Gowan never stopped trying to clear his name. At one point, he managed to get an appointment to see Dulles after Dulles became CIA director. But when Gowan showed up at the agency's headquarters in Washington to plead his case, he was told that Alan Dulles stood him up and had left. Years after both men returned to America, Angleton continued to keep his eye on Gowan.

51:41 Back in Washington, where he eventually became the all-powerful CIA counterintelligence chief, Angleton invited Gowan to lunch at the Army-Navy Club and even to his home in Virginia. You know, he was a very devious character, Gowan said, but he wanted to give me the impression that he was very friendly. He introduced me to his wife and their children. Angleton's betrayal of Gowan hovered silently in the air.

52:10 I never discussed it openly with him. I never trusted him to do that. Both men knew who had won the power struggle in Rome, but they also knew that the secret history they shared had the power to undo Angleton's grand career and expose the underside of Sunrise. Intelligence reports do not normally make for entertaining reading. Few station chiefs come close to having a literary touch.

52:41 But following his release from U.S. military detention in 47, Eugene Dolman's espionage career became such a flamboyant mess that he inspired some of the most colorful memorandums ever produced by the U.S. intelligence bureaucracy. Reading through these declassified CIA documents fills one with awe for Dolman's endless power of reinvention and a sense of wonder as to why men as knowing as Dulles and Angleton

53:10 what they ever saw in him. The U.S. surveillance of Dolman began getting interesting in 1951 when he was located in a suite at a posh hotel overlooking a lake in Switzerland near the northern Italy border. By then, he was living the high life. He was reported to be in financial distress and looking for ways to make some quick cash. Among the schemes he was pondering was writing his memoirs, which he was

53:40 promised to be dishy with actual Nazi documents that he claimed to be authentic, including some written by Hitler. The colonel was shaking down the CIA for money, for exclusive rights, to examine the documents. Dulles said the CIA knew that there was great potential for embarrassment with Dolman. After the years passed, the agency's memos on the colorful SS revealed rising levels of anxiety and exasperation.

54:09 By November of 1951, Dolman was reported to be in close contact with Donald Jones, which was an intriguing twist since Jones was the OSS daredevil whom Dulles had asked to rescue, Carl Wolfe, from the Italian partisans during the war. Jones was still presumed to be an agent of U.S. intelligence, but the memo made clear that Dolman's contact with him was not professional, which means absolutely nothing.

54:39 The two are now divided because of a quarrel presumed to have originated over a question of money or perhaps jealousy, since both were suspected of being sexual perverts, the memo said. The memo concluded that Dahlman's value as an agent or informer was uncertain, but he is not the man he was in 1940 to 45. Dahlman, no doubt, would have readily agreed. For one thing, he had less money.

55:08 He was also stuck in purgatory in Switzerland rather than enjoying his sweet life in Italy because U.S. agents had warned him they couldn't guarantee his safety. Dulles would soon find himself in Italy anyway, at least briefly. After he outstayed his welcome in Switzerland, according to U.S. intelligence reports, Dulles was expelled from Switzerland in February 1952 after he was caught having sex with a Swiss police official.

55:37 In desperation, Dolman appealed to his old fascist friends in the Italian church. So he's a homosexual. He's caught having sex with a man in Switzerland and they kick him out of the country. So where does he go? The Catholic church. He is spirited across the border and given temporary sanctuary in a monastery in Milan. Dolman's savior this time was Father Enrico Zucca, Z-U-C-C-A.

56:09 He was famous for his role in raising Mussolini's body from the grave on Easter 1946 in preparation for the day when Mussolini would be reburied with full honors on Rome's Capitol Line Hill. The Abbey had less spectacular plans for Dolman. He slipped a monk's habit on him and smuggled him onto a boat in Genoa where Dolman was shipped to Franco's Spain.

56:37 which is now where Otto Skorzeny is. In Madrid, Dolman came under the protection of Otto Skorzeny, who had put together a racket trading in arms and helping SS fugitives flee justice. They don't mention being a trainer for Operation Gladio in here. Skorzeny was joined for a time by Heimlich Slott, the banker.

57:05 who had been acquitted at Nuremberg and would parlay his reputation as Hitler's banker into a post-war career of international financial consultant, no doubt the guy that masterminded the money laundering operation at the Vatican. Slatt knew much about the wealth plundered from Europe by German corporations and Nazi officials, and Skorzeny used this inside knowledge to help finance the SS rat lines.

57:36 and Gladio. Angleton also found Skorzeny's service useful. He kept in regular contact with him because of Operation Gladio. They don't put that in here, though. Dolman undertook errands for Skorzeny's international neo-Nazi circuit, but Dolman was no good at freelance espionage game. In October 1952, he flew to Germany.

58:01 on some sort of political mission to make contact with German youth groups. His plans were betrayed, and he was arrested at the airport as soon as it landed. The authorities accused him of traveling on a false passport, and he didn't bother denying it. Even in his native Germany, Dolman was a man without a country. No government wanted to claim him. A November 1952 CIA memo reported that Dolman was back in Rome. He started haunting his favorite cinemas again, but this time,

58:30 it proved nearly fatal. He was noticed by certain elements in the theater and had to be rescued by police. Dolman again tried his hand at selling Hitler documents that he insisted were real. This time he was dangling an Operation Sunrise angle that Dulles certainly found compelling. Among the papers in his possession, Dolman swore, was a letter from Hitler to Stalin proposing a separate peace between Germany and Russia.

59:00 Such a letter would have put Dulles' own Operation Sunrise deal in a much better light. If Hitler and Stalin really did want to discuss their own pack, it made Dulles look brilliant as a chess player. Dulles' friends at Life magazine let it be known that they would pay a staggering $1 million for the letter. Dahlman couldn't produce it. Dahlman's money-making schemes grew more frantic. In December of 52, he quietly reached out to Charles.

59:30 Sarah Gussa, a federal narcotics agent at the U.S. Embassy in Rome who had close ties to the CIA. Now, again, if you know anything about Operation Gladio, this makes perfect sense. Sarah Gussa had proved very useful to Angleton over the years because they were using heroin to fund Gladio.

59:55 He basically had served as a bag man for political payoffs and as a link to the criminal underworld the agency worked with in the mafia because of drugs. And this guy is working for the U.S. Federal Drug Enforcement Agency at the time. Dolman had his own interesting offer for Saragusa. He proposed becoming a paid informant for the narcotics agent and infiltrating.

1:00:25 the movement in Vienna where he claimed that they were financing cocaine deals. Well, they already know where they all are. Dolman's offer smacked of desperation, but in fact, he was already spying on other former Nazi colleagues for the CIA. At the same time,

1:00:48 In true Dolman fashion, he was also hiring himself out to the Nazi groups and reporting back to them about U.S. intelligence activities. As if this web of competing loyalties were not complicated enough, while Dolman was living in Madrid, by the grace of the Franco government, he was also working as a British spy. You can't say this guy was a Gladio operator any better than that, because what this guy doesn't realize is those people are all on the same team.

1:01:18 In 1952, CIA station chief in Europe had grown deeply leery of Dolman. That spring, an agency memo circulating around the field stations in Germany, Italy, and Spain warned against the operational use of Dolman because he had already been involved in several intelligence organizations in Western Europe since 1945. His reputation for blackmail and double dealing was infamous, and he was a homosexual.

1:01:47 That's actually written down. At one point, CIA officials even raised the possibility that Dolman had sold himself to Moscow and was a Soviet double agent. Because when all else fails, that's their go-to. But in 1955, the CIA finally severed its ties to Dolman. It took one last brazen blackmail attempt to persuade Dulles to cut the cord. Dolman had finished his memoirs that year and promised the book.

1:02:16 had salacious details, including unflattering observations about Dulles and Angleton. Before the book went to the printers, Dolman sent a message to Dulles through the U.S. consulate in Munich, letting it be known that he was eager not to offend his friend, Dulles. He offered Dulles the opportunity to flag anything that he found objectionable. The implication was clear. They were men of the world.

1:02:47 who understood each other. After this, Dolman abruptly disappeared from the CIA document record. The astute colonel undoubtedly realized that he had pushed his luck with the agency as far as he could. It was time to retire from the spy game. He lived on for three more decades, trading his notorious past to get by. He was a good storyteller, and his two colorful memoirs sold briskly in Europe.

1:03:17 His astonishing tales even proved for the most part to be true. Dolman also made frequent appearances on European television. In 1967, American writer by the name of Robert Katz, who was working on a book about the cave massacre, tracked down Dolman, finding him in a comfortable residential hotel in Munich where he lived out the rest of his days. At 67...

1:03:47 The silver-haired Dolman seemed quite content with his life. He had photos and memorabilia all over. At one point, Dulles brought up Alan Dulles, his old American benefactor. Dulles had recently published The Secret Surrender, his version of Operation Sunrise. And Dolman was upset to read the Spidemaster depiction of him as a slippery customer.

1:04:18 From the little English I know, Dolman said, slippery customer is not a compliment. Katz explained what it meant. It meant that someone was shrewd, cunning, and Machiavellian. The colonel liked that. So he says that's a compliment to him. So that's the end of part one of the book. We'll stop there for the weekend. That Dulles is just about the most evil SOB there is, isn't there?

1:04:53 Yeah. I mean, and in the beginning, you know, I was going to his lack of empathy and I don't know. Well, he set up this young army guy because, you know, that that news article was part of Mockingbird. They totally sabotage this guy for doing the right thing. It's mind boggling. Just a monster. I mean, just, you know, but.

1:05:30 The institution was evil from the beginning. Yes. If there wasn't a Dulles, there would have been another Dulles, don't you think? Yes, but that's why it made me infuriated when that son of a bitch CIA guy that's all over this stolen election book.

1:05:56 said, yeah, we need to do away with the CIA and go back to the foundation that the OSS was built on. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? You know, it reminds me of that old saying, you know, it's better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Well, he just thinks people are ignorant. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just sick. It's twisted. Yes.

1:06:27 And we're not having any of it. No. Shattered into a million pieces. I'm saying this because Teller's not here. Shattered into a million pieces, blown to oblivion, locked in a black hole, and then peed on. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It's the only solution. Never to be reinvented again. Right. Amen. Go ahead, Renee.

1:06:55 Hey, everybody. Hey, Colonel. Hey, Bridget. Yeah, I mean, this chapter and this book just makes my head spin in on so many levels of the origin of the Nazis, of the origin of fascism, of the connection to the Vatican Church. It's just like this big cyclone of destruction.

1:07:24 and greed and annihilation for what? For control? For power? For just having more shit? And for just having more stuff? It's for power. It's for control. Right. That's all it is. It is. And then when you, like the connections, I don't know the full history. I know that guy, Jay Dyer is really good.

1:07:49 with the religious connection of the Vatican. He goes way back into religion. I'm more curious of when the Vatican caved or were they always compromised, you know? And then Switzerland going back to Dulles and the Nazis and the banks, and they're all set up.

1:08:16 you know, in supposable neutral Switzerland. And then you have Honeypot Patrick Byrne saying that those three guys, when they went to hole up somewhere to be safe, they were in Gestad, Switzerland. Gestad, Switzerland is one of the top, most expensive ski resorts where all the corrupt Italian people, hobnob,

1:08:46 Like the people behind the Fiat companies and all these BSers from Turin and the P2. I mean, it's just, they're all in bed together. They're all, it just makes my head spin. And the beauty of all of this is. Go ahead. I'm sorry. You faded out. No, no, no. It's okay. The beauty is, yeah, nobody could. You're fading out, Renee. Pull anything. Yeah.

1:09:19 It's okay. Yes. Yes. That's the beauty of it. Yeah, that is the beauty of it. And just like this author, you know, David Talbot, very educated guy writes this book. And he's talking about these entities that Dolman was involved in as if they're all separate entities because he doesn't know about Operation Gladio. And it really.

1:09:45 Doesn't matter if he was working for the UK and the CIA because they were both working on Gladio. And it doesn't matter that he was working for the Germans or Franco and he's hanging out with Otto Skorzeny. He doesn't put any of those pieces together. But we put all of those pieces together because that's the network. That was the network that we have talked about for the last three years.

1:10:12 That's why it's so interesting reading these books with having read all of the other books because you make more sense. As soon as I was reading, when I read this book after my formation of Operation Gladio and I saw in the chapter that

1:10:36 They moved him to Madrid. I'm like, oh, son of a bitch, that's Otto Skorzeny. And then he's already been at the resort, quote unquote, jail in Germany with Otto Skorzeny. I'm like, and then like literally the next line down was, yeah, he hung out with Otto Skorzeny. I'm like, damn it, I knew it. And so you can just, like I was telling you guys, in these books, because we know so much about Operation Gladio,

1:11:06 pre-tell what these authors are going to tell us. You just don't know what to the extent they're going to tell you because they themselves don't know about Gladio. I just find reading these books now fascinating for that reason. But they're definitely not separate entities. He was working on the underpinnings of what we now call Operation Gladio, without a doubt, to include his fake passport.

1:11:38 If you guys remember, Agenda Press was set up in Portugal to produce fake passports for this entire network. So yeah, it's crazy, crazy, crazy. At some point, I'm gonna have to buy his book, although it'll be in Germany or in German and have somebody translate it for me because I would be very interested in what other details he drops about his going on.

1:12:11 goings on during that time from someone who knows all about Operation Gladio now, because I'm sure there's a lot of very interesting tidbits in there, especially his interaction with Otto Skorzeny. It would be fascinating. So anyway, maybe I can get, I have a German guy that I DM with all the time. Maybe I can get him to hook me up. Go ahead, Renee.

1:12:40 Yes, I was going to say that. I forget the gentleman's name, but he is a great German source and he posts. Klassen. His name is Klassen.

1:12:50 Yes, yes. He's a great source. He could probably help take us all back to more inner doings in Germany and maybe a little pre. And I don't know if you all are aware, speaking, going back to Switzerland, but I think Trump is going to Davos, Davos, Davos, tomato, tomato. I don't know how you say it next week. So that should be quite fascinating to speak in front of Davos, Davos, whatever. Davos, Davos.

1:13:19 Yeah, that should be pretty spicy entertaining. I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, connecting the dots. And I'm also very curious. I don't know if you've come across any even more of the...

1:13:35 origins of this fascism right because nazi fascism and then we had mussolini and we had franco and in the origins of it do you have any thoughts of that because it all you know kind of connects right so if you go back to the fabian society that's where all of the isms were given birth their their um viewpoint was to create two polar opposite

1:14:05 according to them, and propagandize everybody to believe that they were polar opposites. Bolshevikism turns into communism, and fascism is told to us that it's far right, which it isn't. It's, as we've all said, it's just to this side of communism. They're both total government, as is totalitarianism. So they create these two isms.

1:14:32 um on a continuum and it was done to prod people into the middle what they referred to in the Fabian society as the third way and so you have you know communism on one end you have fascism on the other you don't want to be either one of those so you push people into the middle of the third way and that's where that book um

1:14:56 The Third Way comes from. That's actually the name of the book. Joseph Farrell wrote it. And it's fascinating because it talks about in the early 1950s, these guys all collectively got together in Madrid and they wrote a thing called the Madrid Circular. And I think we did that book. The Madrid Circular was basically an outline of everything that they were going to do in order to create.

1:15:24 fascist international, which was going to be the model of government around the world under the one world government. It's going to be a fascist dictatorship. And it's modeled off of the totalitarian model that Mussolini put up, which is why he was so close to, not why he was, but part of the relationship of all of these people.

1:15:53 was the original Bolsheviks would have got along with Hitler perfectly. They were just creating models of government for total control. And it's as if these guys had used the world as an experiment pot.

1:16:10 we're going to set up totalitarianism in Italy, we're going to set up fascism in Germany, and we're going to set up Bolshevikism, which eventually turns into communism in Russia, and we're going to decide which model we like. Well, the model they liked the best was a version between fascism and totalitarianism, because in order to create this elite class of people, you're not ever going to be

1:16:36 able to implement this system without the oligarchs. Because the oligarchs, if they were to fund, and so they immediately discarded communism because under communism, there's not private business. It's total control by the government. And they didn't want to be in the government to exercise their control. They want to appear independent of the government. But in totalitarian Italy,

1:17:03 You had all of the oligarchs operating in appearance wise outside of the system. And Mussolini's role was basically just to control the peasants. He was basically acting as a plantation owner of Italy and everybody else was slaves.

1:17:22 And you set up the secret police, the national police, the National Guard or whatever, your apparatus for control. And the oligarchs get to sit over there in their palaces that own all of the businesses and treat all of the slave labor because you're not allowed to unionize. As soon as you unionize, you're called a communist. And that's why I have a problem with the use of the rise of communism in Italy.

1:17:49 It was actually a rise of the labor movement in Italy that scared the shit out of them because they didn't want the peasants out of their control. And once you have an effective union, you no longer control the peasants. And so there's a misuse in history documents of what you and I, because again, I think this is all part of the programming.

1:18:14 We live in America, and while you can call the unions here communist, and the original intent of unions when they were first created was to get rid of child labor and all of that other stuff. And there's a lot of people that say, yeah, unions, when they were first built, because the oligarchs were treating people like slaves, they did a great job. And then they got infiltrated by the mafia and they used the pension funds and all that other stuff.

1:18:42 Well, it was basically the oligarchs taking over the unions here. And so Americans have this cognizant dissidence going on where you think unions are not connected to communism here and unions are fine. But what you don't realize is every time unions were effective in foreign countries,

1:19:11 elements paid for with our tax dollars, like under National Endowment for Democracy and the CIA. And they were deemed critically not good in these companies. They were called all communists and done away with. They were destroyed from inside due to infiltration. And the offshoring of our jobs to any country that

1:19:40 basically doesn't permit or they're not controlled unions, doesn't happen. They offshore our jobs to get around the labor movement in the United States. And again, I'm not a pro-union person. I'm just talking about how history has unfolded and the labeling of things as bad when they need to demonize them.

1:20:02 And so if you go down to any of the Latin American countries, none of those people were ever allowed to unionize during Operation Condor. And they were specifically targeted and assassinated union, effective union leaders that they couldn't buy off. So they want an overall fascist type structure set up that allows the oligarchs to sit up on their mountain villas or their lakeside.

1:20:30 villas and allow the government to police the plantation that's like what how they view the entire world all along yeah colonel what you just said reminds me so much of again i hate to come back to it again no i don't the struggle between walter reuther and afl-cio george meanie i mean what you had with um in 1968 was a situation where you know the actual rank and file of the unions was being activated with

1:21:04 you know, against the will, against the will of the union quote-unquote leaders who were completely linked up with the pro-continuing-to-Vietnam War DNC and who, as we know, George Meany's AFL-CIO that some people call AFL-CIA because it's many ways more accurate, was connected to, you know, the CIA-friendly...

1:21:34 dummy unions in Europe and Latin America. And it's like, you know, when the closer the unions become to their actual ideal, namely an activated rank and file, guess what? Someone's going to get shot or plane crashed. Yes. Yes. And they put them, and then the CIA is in charge again. Yes.

1:22:02 It's, you know, the unions are so paradoxical in that way. And it's like, also, you know, something I'm digging into a little bit now is like, not only in 1968 was, you know, the UAW broke breaking with the CIA Democrats to back RK with the MLK. But what we had, I think I've been in this before, it's like, the Teamsters.

1:22:34 Our friendly middleman kind of left the AFL-CIO in January of 1968 at the exact same time as the UAW did. And the UAW was trying to link up and support the United Farm Workers, Cesar Chavez. So what you had there was a situation that, you know, elites.

1:23:03 It was their worst nightmare, right? Because you had the most racially integrated national union, the UAW. And I really say that because everyone knows, you know, we know that the history of the unions has been using racial and ethnic and also religious differences to try to divide. Yes. The workers. Yeah. It goes even inside the UAW. There was like the Catholic person thing going on there that was used to divide also. But now you have.

1:23:34 UAW potentially linking with the United Farm Workers. Okay, so what you have there is a potential lower wage activated union rank and file. Right. That was their worst nightmare. Yes. It threatened the entire corporate structure where you only have the good old boys at the top speaking quote unquote on behalf of the rank and file. Correct. They're just getting them to shut up.

1:24:02 Correct. Forever. And so I just I think it's really, really important, you know, that we look at that first half of 1968 because it's just like, you know, it ends in three assassinations. And after that, the Democrats, every second they're getting closer to the CIA to the point where now we have, you know, it's always it's like the slug. Yeah, because they did.

1:24:32 Because they didn't want to be next. Yeah. But anyway. What you were saying about the unions. It reminded me of that also. Yeah. It's a thing that goes throughout. This entire. Research project. Okay. Well it's Friday. So I'm going to. Tell you guys to have a great weekend. And. I have.

1:25:03 obviously been very busy this week. So tomorrow I am going to try to get to Renee's material. I don't know what time I will do that. We are traveling down on Sunday to the Keys to meet for the first time. I don't know if you guys know, but Illini has been very helpful to me behind the scenes. I've said that a few times.

1:25:32 I'm going to actually get to meet him. So I'm really excited about that. And so I will be kind of spotty the first couple of days of next week as well. But tomorrow I am going to have the show that I can go through that material live. I have not.

1:25:52 I've looked at a couple of the things that she sent, just kind of breezing over them. They're very interesting. And so we're gonna just do it live together. For those of you who can attend, it will probably be tomorrow evening. And if not, it will be an interesting show to watch later on when you have a few minutes. But you'll definitely wanna do that while you're not necessarily on the phone so you can see some of the documents. And it'll give me another opportunity

1:26:22 to do the share screen thing, which I am totally not good at, but we'll figure it out together. So anyway, thank you again, everyone for being here and have a nice weekend if I don't get to talk to you before Monday's show. So take care, everybody.

Entities here

Eugene Dolman50 Italy39 United States35 Allen Dulles32 CIA30 William Gowan25 Rome25 James Jesus Angleton25 Karl Wolff20 Nazi Party17 Adolf Hitler16 Operation Gladio14 Operation Sunrise13 Germany12 West Germany11 Catholic Church11 Benito Mussolini11 Switzerland9 Leo Pagnotta8 Otto Skorzeny7 U.S. Army7 Walter Rauff6 Inter-Services Intelligence6 Franklin Gowan5 Naples4 Drew Pearson4 Madrid4 Franklin D. Roosevelt4 Francisco Franco4 Alfredo Schuster3 Rimini3 X-23 Milan3 Washington, D.C.3 Hungary3 Robert Kagan3 AFL-CIO3 Hugh Angleton3 Nuremberg trials3 U.S. State Department3

Claims made here

Operation Sunrise founded Operation Gladio book_quoted ▶ 1:20

“Life's good. All right. So we're on part five of the devil's chess board in the chapter called Sunrise, which was Operation Sunrise, which gave birth to Operation Gladio. Okay. And we left off towards…”

Allen Dulles saved Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 1:20

Karl Wolff demanded_payment_from Allen Dulles book_quoted ▶ 1:50

“And it says one of the first actions that he took after he was liberated was to demand special treatment. He told everybody that the U.S. government owed him $45,000 for all of the belongings that was…”

Karl Wolff member_of Nazi Party book_quoted ▶ 2:48

“to his Swiss counterpart, Max Weibel, KW doesn't realize how lucky he is that he is not spending the rest of his life in jail. And his wisest policy would be to keep fairly quiet about the loss of his…”

Allen Dulles funded Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 3:20

“that he had abandoned two decades ago to work for Hitler, landing a job in a weekly magazine, courtesy of Alan Dulles, who had helped pave the return to civilian life because during this time, there w…”

Karl Wolff worked_for Heinrich Himmler book_quoted ▶ 3:50

“He quickly proved to be the man on his way up with a circle of friends he had made as Himmler's banker. Wolf found it easy to establish contacts within advertising departments of leading German compan…”

Adolf Hitler promoted Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 4:19

“Success emboldened him. He began talking more openly about his past to friends and journalists. He revealed that 10 days before Hitler's suicide in Berlin, he had promised him to the rank of senior ge…”

Karl Wolff claimed_approval_from Adolf Hitler book_quoted ▶ 4:49

“when he told a newsletter published by an SS veteran that Hitler had known about and completely approved of Operation Sunrise. Wolf, regarded with disdain by his former SS colleagues for his role in S…”

Eugene Dolman wrote_memoirs_about Adolf Hitler book_quoted ▶ 5:14

“Eugene Dolman undoubtedly came closer to the truth when he wrote in his memoirs that a fading Hitler, pumped full of drugs during his final meeting in the bunker, gave Wolf a vague sort of permission …”

Karl Wolff founded Reichsreif book_quoted ▶ 5:42

“In 1953, he took a lead role in establishing the Reichsreif, a neo-fascist party in 1956. He began organizing an organization of former SS officers. The old ideas came slithering out once more. The de…”

Karl Wolff communicated_with Allen Dulles book_quoted ▶ 6:12

“And who better to help him than his American patron? Wolf had stayed in touch with Dulles through the U.S. Occupation Authority stationed in Germany, passing him notes and books related to Operation S…”

Allen Dulles headed CIA book_quoted ▶ 6:43

“Frenchie, Grombach, who had served in army intelligence. Grombach gathered information from a network of former SS officers and ex-Nazis throughout Europe, peddling it to the CIA, State Department, an…”

Frenchie Grombach sold_intelligence_to CIA book_quoted ▶ 6:43

Karl Wolff visited Bonn book_quoted ▶ 7:13

“was the CIA director. On May 20, 1958, March Wolfe marched confidently into the U.S. Embassy in Bonn and asked to see the two CIA officers he knew. Informed that those agents were no longer there, Wol…”

Allen Dulles assisted_visa_for Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 8:15

“Chatting with the Bond station chief, Wolf got to the point. He wanted assurances that he would have no trouble securing a visa for his visit. Informed about his old wartime collaborators, informed ab…”

Eugene Dolman intermediary_for Operation Sunrise book_quoted ▶ 8:44

“Carl Wolf's name still stirred too much unease in Washington. Moving to the next chapter, rat lines. Carl Wolf was not the only prominent SS officer who was greatly benefited from Dulles' sunrise. In …”

Eugene Dolman held_by CIA book_quoted ▶ 9:47

“Mistress of Mussolini's. And he whiled his time by reading it. Dahlman was not an entirely free man. He was still a guest of U.S. intelligence officers. But even though he remained under close surveil…”

Office of Strategic Services transported Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 9:47

Eugene Dolman transferred_to Escona book_quoted ▶ 10:49

“Then he was transferred to a POW camp in Escona on a lake where the daily fare was even more objectionable. And the inmates were forced to sleep in tents that floated away in heavy downpours. Dolman l…”

Eugene Dolman transferred_to Rimini book_quoted ▶ 10:49

Eugene Dolman escaped_from Rimini book_quoted ▶ 11:22

“And for those of you who remember our very first sessions, this is the camp that they put everybody in so they could escape, so they could be ratlined out of Italy, supposedly under the security of th…”

Eugene Dolman sought_sanctuary_from Alfredo Schuster book_quoted ▶ 11:55

“where he knew he could find sanctuary. Here, Dolman presented himself to a well-connected cardinal of the Catholic Church, Alfredo Schuster, in his palazzo adjoining an enormous Gothic cathedral. Dolm…”

Alfredo Schuster worked_for Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 12:28

“in a filthy raincoat, looking the worst for wear. As they sipped liqueur from glasses, Dolman reflected on how the Cardinal always put him in mind of a delicate alabaster statue. But Schuster, who had…”

Alfredo Schuster collaborated_with Benito Mussolini book_quoted ▶ 12:58

“cardinal was part of a Vatican elite that had collaborated with Mussolini's fascist regime. He was inclined to help Dolman now to avoid an embarrassing war crimes trial. Besides, Schuster thought that…”

Alfredo Schuster recruited Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 12:58

James Jesus Angleton headed X-2 book_quoted ▶ 13:56

“Dolman decided to sample some of the forbidden fruit that the screen siren kept stashed in her room, heroin. For a time, Dolman, who had much to forget about in his life, was plagued by detailed memor…”

James Jesus Angleton rescued Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 14:27

“of the OSS counterintelligence in Italy during the war and had stayed behind to use his wiles against the quote-unquote communist threat. After tracking down Dolman in Milan's asylum, Angleton sent a …”

James Jesus Angleton supported_by Allen Dulles book_quoted ▶ 16:52

“Angleton, however, was lost in his own passion. He had found strong support for his views from Alan Dulles in the months after the war. Dulles lingered in Europe, hoping that Truman would appoint him …”

James Jesus Angleton looked_up_to Allen Dulles book_quoted ▶ 17:22

“But he had another mission as well, to organize the Italian front in the Cold War, i.e. Operation Gladio. Angleton, who was wired into the Vatican, helped arrange a secret meeting for Dulles and Pope …”

James Jesus Angleton arranged_meeting_for Allen Dulles book_quoted ▶ 17:22

Allen Dulles organized Operation Gladio book_quoted ▶ 17:22

Hugh Angleton father_of James Jesus Angleton book_quoted ▶ 17:54

“James Hugh Angleton, who was an international businessman who had paved his son's path into the spy trade and continued to play an influential role in his life. Dulles would remain a strong paternal f…”

Allen Dulles recruited Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 18:25

“as the Red Challenge. This included recruiting agents without concern for their fascist past. Dolman was high on their list as recruitment target. His continental sophistication and network of contact…”

James Jesus Angleton provided_identity_for Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 20:05

“While Dolman was unimpressed with Angleton's political lecture, he did appreciate the fake identity card the young spy gave him. The document, which identified him as an Italian employee of an America…”

Hugh Angleton owned_franchise_of National Cash Register book_quoted ▶ 20:35

“So these former business owners in Italy, and by the way, Angleton's dad owned the franchise of the National Cash Register company in America, which is why Angleton was so familiar with Europe and Ita…”

Eugene Dolman served_as_link_between Benito Mussolini book_quoted ▶ 24:35

“to prepare Dolman for the life he began when he joined the SS, where he would rise to become the link between Hitler and Mussolini. Dolman had tried to make sense of why he had enlisted in Hitler's Na…”

Eugene Dolman served_as_link_between Adolf Hitler book_quoted ▶ 24:35

Eugene Dolman escorted Reinhard Heydrich book_quoted ▶ 27:09

“Official Dolman, most dreaded escorting around Italy was Reinhard Heinrich, Himmler's top executioner. Now there was a man clearly meant to be murdered by someone or other, Dolman observed later. His …”

Fritz von Papen convicted_at Nuremberg trials book_quoted ▶ 28:03

“According to one historian, Dolman knew that he was at high risk of prosecution. The Nuremberg trials where Foreign Minister Joachim van Ribbentrop and Ambassador Franz von Papen were both convicted f…”

Joachim von Ribbentrop convicted_at Nuremberg trials book_quoted ▶ 28:03

Walter Rauff second_in_command_to Karl Wolff book_quoted ▶ 29:27

“Dolman's anxieties were heightened when American agents installed two former SS colleagues in his Rome apartment, including Colonel Walter Roth, R-A-U-F-F, who had served as Carl Wolf's second-in-comm…”

Counterintelligence Corps tracked Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 29:55

“as one of the most disagreeable acquaintance he had ever met. In 1941, Roth had overseen the development and operation of the fleet of Black Raven vans, which were basically the mobile death camps. An…”

CIA protected Walter Rauff book_quoted ▶ 29:55

Leo Pagnotta headed Counterintelligence Corps book_quoted ▶ 30:30

“by the 428th U.S. Army Counterintelligence Corps, a detachment of Nazi hunters based in Rome. Major Leo Pagnotta, the Italian-American who was second in command of the Counterintelligence Corps, was a…”

Leo Pagnotta interrogated Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 31:31

“He'd be dropped off for a movie. As Dolman was sitting, waiting in the police station holding room, the door suddenly opened and Major Pagnotta walked in. The two men took an immediate dislike to each…”

Eugene Dolman contacted James Jesus Angleton book_quoted ▶ 32:02

“American, Dolman thought. The situation appeared bleak for Dolman. His next stop would be Nuremberg, but he knew that he had an ace up his sleeve. Dolman took out a piece of paper from his pocket and …”

Counterintelligence Corps headquartered_with X-2 book_quoted ▶ 32:28

“In fact, Pagnotta's team of Nazi hunters was headquartered in the same building with Angleton's rival intelligence operation, the Strategic Services Unit X-2 Branch. Pagnotta's counterintelligence arm…”

James Jesus Angleton worked_for Inter-Services Intelligence book_quoted ▶ 32:59

“Pagnotta's aide, William Gowan. Angleton seemed to work more closely with the Brits than he did the army counterparts, because of course he did. Before transferring to Rome in 1944, Angleton had been …”

Karl Hass escaped_from Leo Pagnotta book_quoted ▶ 33:56

“that they were working at cross purposes. One of the most notorious fugitives, SS Captain Carl Haas, H-A-S-S, who had overseen the Cave Massacre, mysteriously escaped every time Pagnotta's team tracke…”

Karl Hass oversaw Ardeatine Caves Massacre book_quoted ▶ 33:56

Eugene Dolman carried_out_attack Italy documented ▶ 34:25

“in Argentina and extradited to stand trial in Italy for his role in the massacre. Haas received a life sentence, but by then he was an old man. And because of that and his failing health, he didn't ha…”

Eugene Dolman member_of U.S. Army documented ▶ 34:25

Walter Rauff member_of DINA documented ▶ 35:27

“Where? In Chile, where he became a top advisor to Dina and Pinochet. You know, where they had the colony of dignity and the terrorist training camps and the child pedophilia. Yeah, he was one of the t…”

CIA installed Augusto Pinochet documented ▶ 35:27

James Jesus Angleton funded Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 36:27

“SS Eugene Winner, W-E-N-N-E-R, who had also played a part in Operation Sunrise Maneuvers. It soon dawned on Pagnotta's team that Angleton was operating a safe house, a stream of Nazi fugitives who wer…”

William Gowan member_of U.S. Army documented ▶ 37:55

“tradition Democrats. Roosevelt was fond of Franklin Gowan, whom he regarded as one of the few blue-blooded members of the diplomatic corps he could trust. The younger Gowan brought a special sense of …”

James Jesus Angleton spied_on William Gowan book_quoted ▶ 39:24

“The Gowan's family Italian background also infringed on Angleton's turf. I think between the father and son, the Angletons thought they had a lock on Italy and the Vatican, Gowan observed. Jim Angleto…”

James Jesus Angleton reassigned Eugene Dolman documented ▶ 41:43

“Gowan might have been Angleton's social superior with much better connections to Roosevelt and Truman administration, but in the end, it was Angleton who prevailed at the spy games. In May of 1947, af…”

Otto Skorzeny trained Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 42:39

“sets as the propagandist Axis Sally, and Otto Skorzeny. Otto Skorzeny. Imagine that. The people that you are recruiting to set up Operation Gladio just so happens to end up at the same place as the so…”

George Price Hays member_of U.S. Army documented ▶ 43:10

“After the U.S. military released him from incarceration, Dolman was a completely free man. There was sharp disagreement over suspected war criminals like Dolman within the U.S. military command overse…”

George Price Hays covered_up Eugene Dolman documented ▶ 43:39

“on D-Day was angered by the treatment that Dulles' Sunrise Nazis received. Hayes, who became a high commissioner in the U.S. occupation zone in Germany, pointed out in a November 1947 memo that it was…”

CIA recruited Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 44:08

“which he observed would condone their crimes without proper examination. Nonetheless, by 1947, many of the American military hierarchy shared the Dulles-Angleton view that this anti-communist monster …”

William Gowan spied_on Ante Pavelić documented ▶ 48:26

“There was some truth to Pearson's report. Gowan did indeed know who he was from his days in Rome when he had used the Hungarian as an informer to help track down Croatian fugitive Ante Pavelac. He was…”

CIA recruited Ante Pavelić host_asserted ▶ 48:56

“the CIA actually brought into the United States. One of them dressed up as a priest and later claimed to be a priest and pretended to be a priest. And he was a cold-blooded killer that worked with the…”

Frank Wisner headed Office of Policy Coordination documented ▶ 50:22

“That sleight of hand was likely performed by none other than Frank Wisner, a close collaborator of Dulles' from their OSS days, who had recently been appointed as head of the State Department's Office…”

James Jesus Angleton framed William Gowan book_quoted ▶ 50:52

“Hungary, all of those areas. That was Frank Wisner's area of expertise. But it was Gowan that was going to take the fall for the escapade. It did not take him long to figure out who was responsible fo…”

Allen Dulles funded Eugene Dolman documented ▶ 53:40

“promised to be dishy with actual Nazi documents that he claimed to be authentic, including some written by Hitler. The colonel was shaking down the CIA for money, for exclusive rights, to examine the …”

Enrico Zucca covered_up Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 56:09

“He was famous for his role in raising Mussolini's body from the grave on Easter 1946 in preparation for the day when Mussolini would be reburied with full honors on Rome's Capitol Line Hill. The Abbey…”

Otto Skorzeny trafficked Eugene Dolman book_quoted ▶ 56:37

“which is now where Otto Skorzeny is. In Madrid, Dolman came under the protection of Otto Skorzeny, who had put together a racket trading in arms and helping SS fugitives flee justice. They don't menti…”

Hjalmar Schacht laundered_money_for Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 57:05

“who had been acquitted at Nuremberg and would parlay his reputation as Hitler's banker into a post-war career of international financial consultant, no doubt the guy that masterminded the money launde…”

James Jesus Angleton spied_on Otto Skorzeny host_asserted ▶ 57:36

“and Gladio. Angleton also found Skorzeny's service useful. He kept in regular contact with him because of Operation Gladio. They don't put that in here, though. Dolman undertook errands for Skorzeny's…”

Eugene Dolman laundered_money_for Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 59:30

“Sarah Gussa, a federal narcotics agent at the U.S. Embassy in Rome who had close ties to the CIA. Now, again, if you know anything about Operation Gladio, this makes perfect sense. Sarah Gussa had pro…”

Eugene Dolman spied_on United States book_quoted ▶ 1:00:48

“In true Dolman fashion, he was also hiring himself out to the Nazi groups and reporting back to them about U.S. intelligence activities. As if this web of competing loyalties were not complicated enou…”

Eugene Dolman spied_on CIA book_quoted ▶ 1:00:48

CIA covered_up Eugene Dolman documented ▶ 1:01:47

“That's actually written down. At one point, CIA officials even raised the possibility that Dolman had sold himself to Moscow and was a Soviet double agent. Because when all else fails, that's their go…”

Allen Dulles member_of Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:09:19

“It's okay. Yes. Yes. That's the beauty of it. Yeah, that is the beauty of it. And just like this author, you know, David Talbot, very educated guy writes this book. And he's talking about these entiti…”

Allen Dulles recruited Otto Skorzeny host_asserted ▶ 1:09:45

“Doesn't matter if he was working for the UK and the CIA because they were both working on Gladio. And it doesn't matter that he was working for the Germans or Franco and he's hanging out with Otto Sko…”

CIA funded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:09:45

Allen Dulles member_of Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:09:45

Allen Dulles reassigned Otto Skorzeny host_asserted ▶ 1:10:36

“They moved him to Madrid. I'm like, oh, son of a bitch, that's Otto Skorzeny. And then he's already been at the resort, quote unquote, jail in Germany with Otto Skorzeny. I'm like, and then like liter…”

Aginter Press funded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:11:38

“If you guys remember, Agenda Press was set up in Portugal to produce fake passports for this entire network. So yeah, it's crazy, crazy, crazy. At some point, I'm gonna have to buy his book, although …”

Fabian Society founded The Third Way host_asserted ▶ 1:14:32

“um on a continuum and it was done to prod people into the middle what they referred to in the Fabian society as the third way and so you have you know communism on one end you have fascism on the othe…”

Joseph P. Farrell founded The Third Way host_asserted ▶ 1:14:56

“The Third Way comes from. That's actually the name of the book. Joseph Farrell wrote it. And it's fascinating because it talks about in the early 1950s, these guys all collectively got together in Mad…”

Benito Mussolini founded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:15:24

“fascist international, which was going to be the model of government around the world under the one world government. It's going to be a fascist dictatorship. And it's modeled off of the totalitarian …”

CIA funded National Endowment for Democracy host_asserted ▶ 1:19:11

“elements paid for with our tax dollars, like under National Endowment for Democracy and the CIA. And they were deemed critically not good in these companies. They were called all communists and done a…”

CIA carried_out_attack Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:20:02

“And so if you go down to any of the Latin American countries, none of those people were ever allowed to unionize during Operation Condor. And they were specifically targeted and assassinated union, ef…”

AFL-CIO member_of CIA host_asserted ▶ 1:21:04

“you know, against the will, against the will of the union quote-unquote leaders who were completely linked up with the pro-continuing-to-Vietnam War DNC and who, as we know, George Meany's AFL-CIO tha…”

International Brotherhood of Teamsters member_of AFL-CIO host_asserted ▶ 1:22:34

“Our friendly middleman kind of left the AFL-CIO in January of 1968 at the exact same time as the UAW did. And the UAW was trying to link up and support the United Farm Workers, Cesar Chavez. So what y…”