OPERATION GLADIO exposed in The Splendid Blond Beast Part 12B

1:41:21 · recorded 2025-06-06 · ▶ watch on Rumble

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0:00 the Brave browser went white, and then my entire computer shut down, like somebody was attacking it. But I only found it. Yeah. But I was able to reboot the computer. And then finally, the Brave browser still didn't want to work.

0:23 But I shut them all down and then brought one back up and was able to get back onto the live stream to close it because it was still going. But anyway, whatever. We just roll with it. Yep. Okay. Yeah, the whole world's going crazy right now. Remind me at the end to talk about some of the...

0:51 posts that were going on today. Um, Bridget, if you wouldn't mind, um, we're going to get started on, um, it's called whitelist and I may, in order to make sure that we get done with this book before I leave next week, um, I I'm pretty sure we'll get done. So anyway, all right. This, um, chapter starts with, um, if operation sunrise in the,

1:22 collusion over the port city in Italy demonstrated the political factors that favored fugitive war criminals, Allen Dulles' new assignment in Berlin was to exemplify some economic characteristics of the same problem. Dulles became one of Robert Murphy's most strategically placed allies inside occupied Germany. Beginning in early 1945, Dulles'

1:52 provided clearances for senior German bankers and industrialists seeking permission to remain active in Germany post-war economy. Now, keep in mind, these are the same bankers and industrialists that him and his brother did deals with. As an OSS chief in occupied Berlin, he personally oversaw the compilation of what was referred to as whitelist of non-

2:22 Nazi German executives believed to be useful in German reconstruction. He thus exercised considerable influence during the early months of who got to do business and who didn't. And you can imagine who got to do business and who didn't. The people that had played along with the Dulles brothers all got to do business. If he wanted to take out any of their competition, this is how he did it.

2:51 Dulles usually favored amnesty for those whose class or economic status made them useful. Not useful to us, useful to them. And for people who had assisted him in intelligence gathering or covert operations. This is the beginning of the Gladio network.

3:22 who remained diehard Nazi enthusiast. Well, of course, none of these guys did because the Nazis lost. In a striking memo to Washington in late 1944, Dulles erroneously reported that, with a few notable exceptions, Berlin banking circles secretly were violently anti-Nazi. He said that Oswald Rosler

3:50 L-O-E, excuse me, R-O-E-S-S-L-O-E of the Deutsche Bank, Karl Goetz of the Dresdner Bank and the Krupp Board and other key Nazi industrialists like Herbert Goering, Hermann Goering's brother, had been arrested as anti-Nazi resistance leaders before Hitler's fall. Dulles was wrong on almost every single thing he said.

4:20 It was true that by late 1944, many Berlin bankers were disillusioned with Hitler, but they were never violently anti-Nazi. Rosler, Goetz, and Goring were never in any sense an anti-Nazi resistance leader. Each had made their careers with the Nazi party and in bed with the SS.

4:50 Dulles' recently declassified OSS telegram shows that his principal sources of information on the German financial and industrial elites were officials at none other than the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland, which had worked closely with all of the Berlin banks, because remember that every time Hitler took another country,

5:20 He picked up the phone and told the Bank of International Settlements to transfer that company's gold to the German ledger. The Bank of International Settlements had played along with every aspect of the Axis stealing of other countries' gold to the T. And that, and of course, the guy that was there was a colleague of Alan Dulles. So this is just a very small group of people all playing games.

5:51 in order to save the Nazis and their corporate benefactors. The Dulles family had played an important role in the bank from its inception. So it was not surprising that Alan Dulles would turn to his contacts there. The institution had been founded to carry out international clearing necessary for reparation programs that John Foster Dulles had set up after World War I. And the bankers first...

6:23 and most enthusiastic supporter was his sister, Eleanor Lansing Dulles. And remember, Eleanor is the person that was in charge of the State Department office when her brother becomes Secretary of State and Alan Dulles becomes the CIA. She was the belly button in the State Department that coordinated all of the State Department with the CIA. Three peas in a pod.

6:50 Both Allen and John Foster Dulles sat on the boards of New York and London affiliates of European companies led by men on the BIS board of directors. And an American with a long social and business tie to the Dulles' Thomas McKittrick became the bank president in the 1940s. That's the guy that was moving all of the other country's gold into German's kitty.

7:19 At least two senior Bank of International Settlement officers, McKittrick and Roger Auboyne, worked for Dulles as underground contract agents. McKittrick was agent number 644 on Dulles' payroll. So let that sink in for just a second. The guy at the Bank of International Settlements is on Alan Dulles' payroll.

7:47 And then Alan Dulles asked him to produce documents that clears all the people in Germany that he wants cleared, irregardless of whether they were doing business with the Nazis. Everybody keeping up? It's so crazy. He had provided regular information and services to the OSS station in Bern throughout the time Alan Dulles was there. Roger Ahboyne.

8:17 the general manager at the bank of international settlements was agent number 651 code name general manager b and dallas's messages back to oss headquarters notwithstanding the fact that mckittrick was its president the bis was thoroughly dominated by axis interest due to banks bylaws that allocated votes on bank policy according to financial contributions

8:44 The Axis powers had controlled the BIS votes throughout 1930s, and as the Blitzkrieg progressed, control of more voting powers fell into the German hands because they kept conquering more countries. They controlled more votes the more countries they acquired. Officially, the BIS was neutral, but they were not neutral at all.

9:12 During McKittrick's presidency, the BIS cooperated with the German Rights Bank efforts to launder all of the gold stolen from everybody that they imprisoned. The German finance minister, Walther Funk, was first among equals at the BIS wartime board of directors. After the war, McKittrick sold the concentration.

9:44 camp gold back to the Germans, stating, as the New York Times put it, that the Bank of International Settlements had purchased it inadvertently. The institution also joined in a complex Nazi scheme to use currency manipulation and bank clearing procedures to loot the economies of the acquired countries. It led to charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Germans involved in the scheme.

10:13 and other Bank of International Settlement executives, however, were never charged. The bank clearing schemes deserve special notice because their significant but little-known role of looting the equivalent of billions of dollars from the Nazi-occupied territories. Importantly, this form of looting was for the most part organized and managed by ordinary German corporate executives. You know, the ones they just wrote notes on to clear.

10:42 Those guys. But also foreign collaborators, not just diehard Nazis. Here again, the Nazis succeeded in harnessing the in-place conventional social machinery of trade to the task of a Hitler's government. In this way, billions of Reichsmarks worth of wealth in the countries occupied by Nazis shifted into German hands, often before the victimized country even understood what was happening.

11:13 Germany had instituted basic monetary clearing procedures during the 1930s as a means of controlling the flow of foreign currency in and out of the Reich. In the simplest form, a German company interested in trade with, say, Belgium, would pay for the Belgium goods in German currency to a German central bank. The Reichsbank in Berlin, that was their central bank. The Reichsbank would then send

11:43 what amounted to an international IOU to the Belgium Central Bank for the amount that it would pay the German company. The Belgium Central Bank would then pay the Belgium company the money for its good in Belgium currency. Hundreds of other companies in many countries were involved in these deals.

12:11 Then at a regular interval, the central bank would meet with the Bank of International Settlement, total up the credits and debits of all the business deals and clear them, making a settlement between the central bank that balanced their accounts. The creation of this central channel of foreign exchange permitted Hitler's government to monitor and license all transactions between Germans and foreigners. These procedures contributed significantly to the

12:41 taking of Jewish property because they closed off the opportunity to transfer assets abroad for all but a few of the wealthiest and best connected people to include some of the elite German Jews, which they allowed to then use the system. During Germany's wartime occupation of foreign countries, Hitler's government took effective control of both sides of the clearing operation.

13:09 thus manipulating each contract to the betterment of the German bankers and industrialists. In Belgium, for example, the German occupation government declared the German currency, the Reichsmark, to be worth 12.5 Belgian francs. This rate overvalued the mark by as much as 50%, making everything in Belgium extraordinarily cheap for Germans. Next,

13:38 The puppet Belgium government decreed that all trade with Germany or with an occupation government was required to use a special currency designed for German use in the occupied countries. In effect, Germany created a new type of money in Belgium and throughout occupied territory in Europe that it could print and spend at will.

14:00 When it came time to settle up between the Reichsbank and the Foreign Central Bank, the Reichsbank again enlisted the cooperation of the Bank of International Settlements in putting forward a variety of pretexts not to pay the debt. The occupied country was powerless to protest because it was being ran by Germany. The Germans confiscated property in the occupied territories by using a related technique.

14:28 In Belgium, the Nazi-appointed government forced Jewish people to sell most of their possessions for a price set by the government and paid in the new currency into a special bank account. Later, when most Belgium Jews were deported to be murdered, the occupation government simply seized that account and took everything in it.

14:52 The German banks and companies began buying up foreign companies' real estate products and raw material all across Europe for a fraction of its value. Such transactions were usually completed, quote-unquote, legally with actual contracts and deeds. Meanwhile, they were using this Ponzi scheme of money in order to document it. This was extremely profitable for German companies.

15:22 Now you know why Allen Dulles is involved in deciding which companies benefit and which ones don't. The post-war coalition government in Poland estimated that this type of theft had cost the country the equivalent in 1939 dollars of 20 billion dollars. While these numbers are an estimate, the government obviously had an interest in claiming high damages, but it was a lot.

15:54 The British estimated that the Germans had extracted the equivalent of $180 billion from occupied Europe as of 1943, including direct levies for occupation costs and a variety of hidden techniques that they used to manipulate currency. They do not include estimates for wealth seized from the Soviet Union and Greece. As such, even the $180 billion

16:24 underestimates the total theft. The Bank of International Settlements cooperated in facilitating all of this. The bank recognized the Nazi-installed occupation governments, provided the clearing services essential to legalizing the operation, and even went so far as to help Nazi leaders such as Walther Funk unload looted gold in the international market.

16:51 Once the war was over, Allen Dulles and the OSS turned to McKittrick, Oboin, the Bank of International Settlement, and to Dulles' own pre-war business contacts in Germany for advice on the political leanings of German bankers. This was an obvious, indefensible move. The prejudice latent in McKittrick's recommendation to Dulles should have been sorted out by Dulles himself.

17:21 But as we know, Dulles and his brother were instrumental in setting these companies up to begin with. Dulles passed on McKittrick's evaluation of German bankers with only minimal checking. In the summer of 1945, Dulles prepared a list of eight top German bankers, complete with biographies, whom he recommended on the basis of their ability and their record for senior corporate posts in German major enterprises.

17:51 Dulles drew heavily on the protégés of Heimlich Slot, who was basically known as Hitler's central banker at one point, then already facing charges before the military tribunal at Nuremberg, but of course, they made sure he got off. At the top of Dulles' list was Ernst Holse, H-U-E-L-S-E, a former director of the Bank of International Settlement and a key SLAT aide at Rights Bank.

18:24 Next came Carl Blessing, also a former rights bank director, Bank of International Settlement director, and another protege of Heimler-Slock. And then a series of minor bankers, some of who had, in fact, been hostile to some of the Nazi actions. The men Dulles recommended usually ended up in very senior positions in Germany.

18:55 A closer look at Carl Blessing's career illustrates not only the ambiguity of the German financial elite under Hitler, but also the role of U.S. intelligence in preserving that elite through 1945 and 1946. With Alan Dulles' help,

19:14 Carl Blessing cultivated a reputation after the war as an anti-Nazi who had once resigned a seat on a board of a powerful multinational company, Unilever, rather than cooperate with SS efforts to take over the company. Following the quote-unquote act of bravery, Blessing later told the New York Times he was reassigned by Hitler to be a functionary at the Ministry of Mineral Oil.

19:42 where he spent years hiding from the Gestapo. This claim was remarkable both in that Blessing should make it and that the Times actually printed it. The truth is that Blessing served throughout Hitler's years as one of the most important liaisons between German's big business and the Nazi party, as well as the SS. Karl Blessing represented Heimler Schlott and the Reichsbank at meetings

20:09 clandestine organizations of bankers and industrialists who sought to curry favor with the SS chief Himmler. By secretly bankrolling some of his most exotic projects, Hitler was one of them, excuse me, Blessing was among the most enthusiastic attendees at Himmler's gatherings for more than a decade.

20:37 That came from a guy by the name of Fritz Kranzbus, who became Himmler's adjutant and monitored all of these meetings. Blessing participated in 30 out of 38 gatherings. You know, so he wasn't an outsider. Blessing also joined various Nazi-sponsored businessmen and other organizations as early as 1934.

21:03 and then he joined the Nazi party in 1937. Slott had appointed him the youngest full director of the rights bank in the entire history of the bank. He engineered Carl Blessing's appointment to several private banking posts and a directorate at Margerin Union AG, the German branch of Unilever. Blessing served

21:31 as the financial director in Berlin between 39 and 41, a post that was roughly the equivalent to the German government appointed trustee of a company and its property. It was considered to be highly visible, but it also had been deemed a criminal corporate enterprise. He never was the lowly clerk that he told people that he was. The Continental

22:04 was for the strategically crucial petroleum industry, which Hermann Goring combined was to Germans weapons production, a government licensed monopoly used by the Nazis to seize control of hundreds of companies by German troops, especially along the Eastern front under blessings leadership. This continental became the German.

22:34 corporation of like a prototype of the German corporation under Hitler. Throughout the 30s German oil production had been coordinated through the state ministry in a private cartel and the main German companies in the industry had remained privately owned but were managed by people like Blessing. Continental was the solution. The four largest German oil companies and IG Farben

23:06 jointly created Conti, K-O-N-T-I, as a new petroleum monopoly for Eastern Europe. The company enjoyed Germans' government sponsorship, exclusive production contracts, and first claim on any petroleum-related properties that were made available that they stole from the Jewish people or from foreign people as they invaded their countries. The corporation paid 7.5% royalty on petroleum to the Reich.

23:37 All remaining profits of the operations were divided among the companies that were bankrolling it. They became the largest single exploiter of concentration camp labor in history. According to the International Red Cross records, Conti and the network of subsidiary companies maintained their own concentration camps at, and they list them, there's like 15 different locations.

24:07 were other Conti operations in Poland and Ukraine. The prisoners did crushing construction labor needed to reopen roads and oil fields that had been destroyed by the Soviet Union. They also laid pipelines and created new petroleum sites. Conti leased most of his personnel from the SS concentration camps. And one

24:36 It was entered into evidence in Nuremberg, quote, Jewish laborers would not receive any payment in cash, unquote. The factory administration will pay the SS and the German police for each person based on the number of days that it works, that they work. The system was orderly enough. Payments for inmates were to be delivered to the SS.

25:09 the third day of each month. So they had an incentive to find more bodies for the labor camps. No one knows how many inmates died working at Conti, though hard labor camps of this type typically killed a third to half of its inmates every six months. The SS spokesman at the conference contended that construction work on the Eastern Front should become one of the main vehicles for wiping out every prisoner.

25:39 Karl Blessing exercised special responsibility for the company's financial affairs and its relation with the German banks. He could hardly have been ignorant to the character of the company that he was leading. He could not be ignorant to the money that was being paid to the SS that allowed them to consistently refurbish their labor force. Even Conti's corporate offices in Berlin, where Blessing worked,

26:10 were built with concentration camp labor. Much of this was known as early as the summer of 1945. Blessing's service as a director was widely noted in German biographies, dictionaries, business magazines, and the like. Details of Conti's activities in the East were not quite as extensively written about.

26:36 But everyone knew what was happening. Two of Blessing's colleagues from the Conte's board, Walter Funk of the Rights Bank and BIS, and Heinrich Boldavich of IG Farben, were even about to be put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanities. Nonetheless, with Allen Dulles' assistance, new respectability seemed to sparkle.

27:02 for Karl Blessing from the summer of 1945 as he continued to climb the corporate structure in what was going to be the new Germany. Dulles' de facto clearance became instrumental in Blessing's return to a variety of German businesses on their advisory boards, in corporate directorships. He was even put back on the board of Unilever.

27:33 where he eventually served as the company's international board of directors and as chairman of the German subsidiary. Blessing became one of the highest paid business executives in the world. Fortune magazine gushed after the war with an annual salary equivalent to about $75,000 back in 1940s. Blessing then stepped up and became chairman of West Germany's central bank. And by the early 1960s,

28:01 He was by any measure among the most powerful men in Germany. By the time he retired in 1970, Carl Blessing had emerged in his own stories and in the press as virtually an anti-Nazi resistant hero. The prestige media in the U.S. and Europe seemed to have convinced themselves that a man of sensibility, respect, and well-dressed as Blessing just could never have been.

28:30 a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. The heart of the matter is that Karl Blessing was willing to traffic in the lives of concentration camp inmates in order to maintain his corporate position and social status in Nazi Germany and then lie about it afterwards. By any reasonable standard, this decision made Blessing an accomplice to crimes against humanities

28:59 The members of the corporate board of IG Farben was eventually tried and convicted for procuring slave labor for construction of IG Farben's oil facilities. Yet Blessing managed to escape any of that, even though he was on the IG Farben board, mainly thanks to Alan Dulles' intervention in the McKittrick's,

29:31 document saying that he was anti-Nazi. Okay, so they're still fighting back in the State Department about what's going to be a war crime and what isn't. This infighting became particularly pronounced in prosecutions of the German industrial elites and business leaders. Nuremberg, so while the U.S. team at Nuremberg

30:02 was prosecuting Blessing's longtime mentor, Heimer Slats. For example, the legal advisor's office at the State Department was quietly helping the defense team clear him. In the heart of the prosecution argument was that Slat had been instrumental in bringing Hitler to power, in providing legitimacy and stability to his regime as his economic advisor. In the clandestine rearmament of Germany and also

30:32 in the attack on Jewish people. Schlatt also served the Nazi regime as a rights bank director and minister of economics. He had participated in the Nazi conspiracy to use slave labor. Meanwhile, the State Department helped drum up support for his defense by tracking down witnesses and interviewing U.S. intelligence agencies and assets who might have evidence that reflected

31:03 favorably on the banker. An argument can be made that the State Department had an obligation to provide any evidence that they had, but they went way beyond that. They went looking for people to try to find a defense for this guy. State's legal advisor, Hackworth, went well above any ordinary steps.

31:36 Hackworth sought out new defense witnesses, screened them, arranged transportation and scheduling for them, and became a behind-the-scenes advocate for SLAPP. The state dispatched messages seeking support for him to the U.S. consul in Zurich, Sam Woods, one of the most important U.S.-backed channel conduits to the German economic elite, and to Hans

32:05 Gesewitz, a leader of a tiny nationalist conservative wing of the German resistance, who had been an important member of Allen Dulles' intelligence network. Gesewitz was still working as a full-time U.S. intelligence source in 1945. Both he and Woods proved eager to work on Slatt's behalf. The State Department engaged in yet another Dulles wartime.

32:36 engaged another Dulles agent, the former Axis Romanian ambassador, Gagori Gafencu, to write memoirs that stressed that Germany had been drawn into the war against its will and that choices of people like Slat as a result of that weren't their fault. Meanwhile, Robert Jackson's prosecutors at Nuremberg

33:06 was still split over the issue of whether to bring him to trial. The U.S. hardliners favored prosecution, as did Jackson, but Jackson's most senior deputy, former SS chief William Donovan, strongly opposed the trial. Donovan argued that Slatt had been secretly sympathetic to Western allies in the war.

33:31 and that a tough cross-examination of him on the witness stand would undermine the stability of Germany and our national security. Jackson, however, found himself hemmed in by his commitments to France and the Soviet prosecutors who strongly favored putting him on trial. Donovan then resigned over this dispute. Donovan felt so strongly

34:00 that Heimler's snot should not be put on trial at Nuremberg, even though he was key financially to making all of this stuff with the Bank of International Settlements and this fake money that they were using and all that crap. He was critical to all of that setting up. And while Bill Donovan said that if you try him, I'm going to quit and he quit because he got tried and he really did it over nothing because

34:29 There's no way they're going to find him guilty. Okay, but while Bill Donovan did work behind the scenes to make sure that the prosecutors that actually did the cross-examination did so in a very strict manner, Jackson's eventual agreement to the limitation took the heart out of what you could have actually charged him as far as crimes.

35:00 So therefore, Slat was acquitted at Nuremberg and over the protest of the Soviet judge. In this case, as in others, the split between the U.S. and the Soviets kept getting bigger. It all boiled down to basically more about politics than it did about people's innocence or guilt.

35:30 The Western intellectuals looked east during the Cold War. They found several examples of communist states employing ideological and rhetoric to separate the Soviet government from its more odious activities. Stalin never publicly discussed mass murder, Western scholars pointed out. He spoke instead of class struggle and of eliminating certain people of certain classes. And in doing so,

35:58 diffused his responsibility for their faith. The fact that Western press indulged in similar historical revisionism concerning the Nazis while at the same time hammering the Soviets was illustrative of this double standard. It also suggested that the Western media

36:25 engaged in self-delusions about mass crimes sometimes, well, well documented in the Axis side of the war. How would it be possible for the New York Times and Fortune magazine to write about Conti's wartime businesses without considering the most of the company's assets had been looted from

36:55 the countries that Hitler occupied. The discussion of Conti apart from these facts was basically ignorant, yet it was done. Carl Blessing's complicity in genocide was not as direct as that of SS generals who led the extermination squads, but he was basically, he was knowledgeable about all of it and did nothing to stop it.

37:23 Those traits enabled him to prosper as a young executive under Hitler, his tolerance of all of this. They brought him to Slat's attention and put him in contact with that entire network. His counterparts at the Bank for International Settlements and the Western foreign policy and financial circles was all part of his grooming. The Allied leaders who were struggling with the day-to-day problems of managing Germany

37:53 would once again turn to Karl Blessing. So not only do they save him, Allen Dulles, from going to Nuremberg, he is then thrust into the center of what's going to happen to Germany post-war. Just as with the Smith brothers, the basic question remained, under what circumstances does offering amnesty to Nazis, such as Blessing,

38:24 To avoid a greater evil, supposedly what we were avoiding is this imminent attack by the Soviets, despite the fact that they had lost 25 million people. And we had already been told by State Department's own admission that they were in no position to do anything in the immediate aftermath of the war. Robert Murphy and Alan Dulles believed that they knew the answer.

38:49 The decision should be left to the competent government authorities operating in a framework that was set out by them. Murphy and Dulles repeatedly reached secret verdicts that they believed necessary to construct the post-war Germany. As early as the summer of 1945, Murphy was willing to defy U.S. treaty obligations concerning high-ranking Nazis and Axis collaborators when he regarded it was in the U.S.

39:19 interest to do so. Shortly after the German collapse, for example, Tito's government in Yugoslavia was to try the war criminal Miklos Horthy, who had been a royal regent of Hungary and supreme commander of Hungarian armed forces during the years of alliance with the Nazi Germany. Horthy also shared personal responsibility for establishing the Hungarian race laws and the persecution

39:48 Hungarian citizens. The Yugoslavs had suffered invasion and massacre at Hungary's hand during Horthy's regime, and they felt justified in bringing formal charges against him at the war crimes tribunal. According to their agreements with the U.S., they seemed to have legal authority to prosecute him even in a Yugoslav court. The post-war Czechoslovakia government of John

40:16 Jan Maastricht, agreed that the Czech cabinet on September 25, 1945, declared the ex-regent Horthy a war criminal. President Maastricht took a serious view of Horthy's activities, characterizing them as aggression and an invasion of Czechoslovakia, persecution, responsible for cruelties, ill treatment, and executions of Czech citizens.

40:46 destruction of property enforcing Czech citizens into the Hungarian army, according to U.S. diplomatic report. The Czechoslovakians also brought charges against Horthy, but Horthy, as will be seen, was not an ordinary war criminal. Horthy had led the establishment of a Catholic monarchist state in Hungary

41:16 After suppression of the communist rebellion in Budapest in 1919, the U.S. aid to shore up his wobbly government had been the centerpiece of Alan Dulles' recommendations to President Woodrow Wilson during the young diplomat's days as chief of the U.S. political intelligence for Central Europe. Horthy had emerged as something like a grand old man of Hungary during the interwar years.

41:46 He was well-liked in Washington because he was controlled by Washington. They convinced themselves that Horthy had been quote-unquote forced to join the Axis. Horthy had always been a militarist in the mold of a Spain's Franco or Portuguese Salazar. In other words, he's a fascist. He preferred political and economic persecution to outright murder.

42:17 At least usually, Hitler had grown worried about Horthy's loyalty to him, so the Germans deposed him, installed a more compliant regime, and swept away hundreds of thousands of Hungarians to death camps. The U.S. Army captured Horthy during the summer of 1945 and interned him at Ashkan, the U.S. POW camp for high-ranking Axis prisoners.

42:47 After his arrival, U.S. political advisor Murphy sought Washington's approval for Horthy's release. Legal advisors Green and Hackworth agreed, provided the Soviet Union did not formally object. The Soviets said nothing. Murphy wished to offer Horthy political asylum and protection from persecution in exchange for his cooperation in establishing a post-war Hungarian

43:15 regime sympathetic to the US. In other words, he was controlled by America. The US ambassador to Budapest, Rudolf Schoenfeld, believed that Hungary's post-war government in 1945 would secretly agree to this, providing that it did not do so publicly. The post-war coalition government of Hungary did not want to try Horthy for treason if it was impossible to avoid doing so.

43:45 So according to the U.S. Embassy reports of the day, because many felt a trial would undermine the state's future. The chief U.S. prosecutor at Nuremberg, Robert Jackson, promised Horthy that if he cooperated with the U.S. political agenda, the U.S. would block any war crime charges against him and refuse to transfer him to Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia. Horthy agreed.

44:11 Jackson then met with the Czechoslovakian and Yugoslavia war crimes officials, telling them that it would sit rather badly with the world if these countries tried the regent owing to Horthy's advanced age because he was over 70. In fact, Jackson knew that the U.S. doctors had examined Horthy and found him to be fine. He lived for more than 20 more years.

44:38 offered the Yugoslavs a confidential deal under which Horthy would be formally charged with war crimes but not actually turned over to Yugoslavia for trial. The Yugoslavs rejected the overture, insisting that Horthy had to be transferred to Belgrade and he had to be put on trial. The War Crimes Commission, the new U.S. representative to that, was Colonel Joseph Hodgson.

45:07 He sought to derail the Horthy prosecution when consideration of the case come up a few weeks later at the committee. They deadlocked over the case split between Yugoslav and Czechoslovakia on one side and the U.S. and Brits on the other. They eventually compromised on charging Horthy with crimes against humanity. The most morally compelling but legally weak way to go. The adjourned.

45:35 and adjourned the war crimes charges stemming from the Hungarian invasion of its neighbors. This action satisfied the Czechs, who refrained from further requests to have him put on trial, but the Yugoslavs would not give up. The U.S. military authorities in Germany, meanwhile, released Horthy from Ashkan, and he took up residence in Bavaria.

46:00 Officially, the former regent was supposed to notify US authorities if he moved, but other than that, he was free to do as he chose. Robert Murphy and the US ambassador to Hungary worked to clear Horthy's petition for permission to immigrate to Switzerland or Portugal, both of which were willing to provide him with asylum. The US State Department succeeded in protecting Horthy from trial.

46:28 on any charges including crimes crimes against humanity even though the u.s had itself supported such charges they decided to renege on that imagine that some senior u.s officials even made sure that horthy was invited to u.s diplomatic receptions in germany during this time less than two years after the fall of berlin the yucoslav government formally protested to washington

46:55 After noticing a news dispatch from Munich describing the wedding of U.S. Consul Sam Woods, the published invitation included a dozen senior officials, including Horthy. The Yugoslav ambassador has the honor to draw the attention of the Honorable U.S. Secretary of State to the fact that Admiral Horthy is a war criminal, the protest read. Horthy had been registered.

47:23 by the Yugoslav War Crimes Commission, and he even cited the page and paragraph number. The Yugoslav government requested the American authorities at Wiesbaden for extradition of the Admiral and repeated this request again in 1946. The Yugoslav wanted to know what disciplinary action was planned against Woods for consorting with Horthy, a war criminal.

47:53 The U.S. responded stiffly that the wedding was a private nature and there wasn't anything they could do about it. The more sophisticated Axis defendants soon learned how to make the most out of the division among the allies. The post-war careers of SS men who had negotiated with Allen Dulles during Operation Sunrise provided an example of the relationship that evolved.

48:23 and to who got saved and who didn't. After the German surrender, SS General Karl Wolf proceeded on the assumption that Wolf's cooperation with Dulles had won him a place in post-war German government. Wolf sought to pick up the political threads of his old command, an OSS report said, playing on the old discrepancy between Russia and America, meaning, you know, hey.

48:50 Russia's going to come across and kill all of you, we'll help you. Though Dulles was later to deny it, he extended a de facto protection to Karl Wolf and at least two of his assistants, Eugene Dahlman and Eugene Winner, both of whom were later indicted by Italian authorities for their roles in massacres of Italian partisans and deportation of Italian citizens to Auschwitz.

49:20 Circumstantial evidence links Dulles to the escape of another Wolf assistant, Walter Roth, whose rise through the SS ranks had been helped by his use of the gas trucks to murder people as a mobile death camp. Allied war crimes investigators identified Wolf almost immediately as one of the most powerful members of the Nazi inner circle to survive the war. The French and Soviet governments favored prosecuting him.

49:49 to be one of the first trials at nuremberg had wolf been tried there he would almost have certainly been sentenced to hang but the u.s and british representatives at nuremberg planning committee said no only one u.s one ss officer was prosecuted there the others would surely get their turn later later never came the case against gestapo chief ernst

50:20 Captain Bruner would be easier to make than against Wolf, the U.S. contended, even though Wolf probably had more power in the SS than anyone else. After much debate, the Tribunal Planning Committee decided to prosecute Haltenbruner first, and in the autumn of 1945, they slated Wolf to be the chief SS defendant at the second tribunal scheduled to open in 1946.

50:49 But that was not to be. Within weeks of the opening of the first, Robert Jackson recommended to Washington that the U.S. should not cooperate in any further trials, regardless of its commitment to Moscow. The state to state relations began deteriorating almost immediately. Jackson believed that the Soviet vision of justice in Europe required revolutionary reorganization of Germany and a rapid expansion of Soviet power.

51:19 Any new international trial of Nazi leaders would certainly provide the Soviet Union with political gains. It had nothing to do with justice. It had, it may give them a bone and we don't want to make the Soviets look good. So they're advocating for justice. We're not. And if we give them justice, that's going to make them look good.

51:46 Instead, Jackson convinced Truman the U.S. should hold its own trials of Nazi defendants then in U.S. hands. These trials became known later as the later Nuremberg trials or more formally as subsequent proceedings. These later trials, prosecuted under the command of General Telford Taylor, proved to be one of the most comprehensive efforts to prosecute anyone.

52:12 Taylor and his colleagues brought more than 180 individual German leaders to justice and created a permanent record of Nazi criminality. The subsequent proceedings included three major prosecutions of SS defendants, one of Germany's justice ministries, one of Nazi doctor that had been active in the concentration camp and three senior German military commanders, three.

52:41 major German industrialists, and one trial of 21 leaders of various ministries. Carl Wolf, again, succeeded in wriggling off the hook, despite the fact that he was personally implicated in half of the cases that were brought to trial. Meanwhile, Wolf's top SS aide, who had been active in Sunrise, Walter Roth, Eugene

53:12 dolman and eugene winner and others also escaped prosecution even though they were tried charged with crimes against humanity and other charges by italian officials alan dallas and his colleagues in the u.s clandestine operations could not order telford taylor or the italian government not to prosecute them he lacked authority to do so considering the strong personal commitment

53:40 of Telford Taylor and his aides to the war crimes trials, any obvious attempt to derail them would have been a step too far. But Dulles and the emerging CIA could nonetheless make their influence felt directly and indirectly even after Dulles had left his OSS post. In the fall of 1946, the Italian government issued arrest warrants for SS officers and Gestapo officers that had operated in Italy.

54:09 including Wolf and his senior assistants. That triggered inquiries from the State Department to the US Central Intelligence Group, which is what the OSS had turned into, CIG, concerning what should be done with these people that were still in US custody. The CIG was the predecessor to the CIA.

54:34 and had administrative responsibility for U.S. intelligence affairs between the time of the OSS and the creation of the CIA. The CIG liaison officer with State, Robert Joyce, prepared a reply that in time became the standard language used to explain the U.S. commitment to the USS men. So let me explain something here. In a normal world,

55:02 The Central Intelligence Agency would have zero to do with whether or not the Italians charged anybody or whether or not the U.S. did. That would be strictly the Department of Justice and the State Department. The Central Intelligence has nothing to do with that, period. What this did for me is it illustrated that Alan Dulles

55:31 was using these Nazis to set up Gladio. The use of the Central Intelligence and the OSS at the end of the war to protect Nazis. And all of these Nazis end up incorporated into NATO, the BND, the CIA, and Gladio overall.

56:02 What you are reading here, and that's why I found this so profound, at no time in the world's history would you pick up the phone and involve the CIA in something that had to do with a judicial issue if you were actually interested in justice because they don't play a role in it at all. The only thing that you may want to do.

56:31 is call them up and say, hey, is this one of your sources? And had that phone call been made, which I'm alleging that it has, and they go, yeah, we're going to use them, or we are using them, or we have been using them, then only then would there be a hands-off policy, which is exactly what happened, so we know that was true. Hopefully you followed that logic. All right.

56:59 So here's what was found in a document. The records of the former OSS provide proof that Eugene O'Dolman, aide to General Wolfe, and former SS Fuhrer, as well as former SS Eugene Winner, also connected with Wolfe, and now being held captive in Italy, participated in the operation leading up to the German capitulation in Italy.

57:26 Mr. Allen Dulles, formerly of OSS and later SSU, a short-lived iteration of OSS, initiated the negotiations, has been contacted here and confirms the foregoing. Major General Lyman Lemesker, who also participated in these negotiations, is convinced after an examination of the records and contact with Allen Dulles.

57:56 of Dolman's participation presents representation by the Italians would appear to be an endeavor to undermine in Italy the Allied position. It would appear the Allied interest would be advanced by the U.S. military headquarters and would confirm the fact that Dolman and Winter's participation and that these people should receive consideration appropriate to the circumstances.

58:25 What Alan Dulles did with Operation Sunrise is basically plant the beginning of the interaction between Reinhard Galen and Alan Dulles and the setting up of European stay-behind network through NATO right there. And the fact that Lyman Wiemensker was at that meeting

58:54 and later issues Operation Northwood that recommends domestic terror attacks in the United States camouflaged as Castro's army to kill Americans in order to justify a full-scale army invasion of Cuba.

59:21 ends up at NATO headquarters who runs Operation Gladio at the very same time JFK is assassinated. He was at the first planning meeting of Operation Gladio. That's what this book just said. My mind was blown when I read that. So going on, Italian authorities also tightened screws on Walter Roth, whom the Americans were then holding at a relatively high security prison.

59:58 Roth, R-A-U-F-F, had been one of Wolfe's most important links to Cardinal Schuster and Monsignor Besrari throughout the negotiations with Dulles back during Sunrise. When the Italians sought to prosecute Roth for his work with the Gestapo in Milan, the U.S. authorities transferred him to a prisoner hospital in Milan. And from there,

1:00:28 to a low-security POW camp near Rimini that had seen a series of, weirdly enough, prison escapes. And then, weirdly enough, he walked away and escaped. He said later, I went to Naples when he was questioned at a Chilean immigration court, which means he went to Chile as a Nazi.

1:01:00 where Colony Dignity is that had lots of other Nazis there. He goes on to say there was a Catholic priest that helped me go to Rome, another rat line from the prison at Rimney to Rome and on to Chile. He said that he stayed overnight in lots of convents, courtesy of the Holy See. There was a Catholic priest helped me.

1:01:30 And with the help of the Catholic Church, my family was able to come with me. Isn't that nice, that family togetherness? Reunited with his family, he went to Damascus. And from there, to South America, eventually to Chile. With Roth's hidden by the Vatican and Wolf in U.S. hands in Germany, Italian officials renewed their efforts to prosecute Dolman Winner.

1:01:59 and a handful of other SS officers that they still believe was in U.S. custody. An Italian military tribunal in Rome filed charges against Dolman and three others on November 25, alleging that they had been instrumental in mass executions of civilian hostages. The U.S. then takes Dolman from his internment center, where the Italian prosecutors knew he was being held,

1:02:29 to an army hospital but that would only work temporarily and by the following spring the u.s army command in italy was complaining to the state department and to the interim central intelligence group of the necessity for a decision on what the hell to do with dolman after a flurry of cables back and forth and discussions the records of which are still classified tell me why

1:02:58 Seventy-some years? We don't need to know? The State Department determined that both Dolman and Winter will be removed to Germany under security arrangements as soon as EUCOM, European Command, and the U.S. military could confirm that they'll accept them. The U.S. shipped Dolman immediately. Once Wolf, Dolman, and Winter were safely beyond the reach of Italian law, they renewed their...

1:03:28 appeal for a complete amnesty from the war crimes prosecution. SS General Carl Wolf claims that in connection with Operation Sunrise leading to the surrender of German forces in Italy, that that had been a promise of none other than Allen Dulles. Wolf alleges Major Weibel of the Swiss General Staff was witness to the guarantees made by Allen Dulles.

1:03:57 Some U.S. intelligence authorities in Germany are of the definite opinion that the military honor requires pardon and immunity for Wolf and his adjutants who are at present in automatic arrest category. Can you make discreet inquiries of Dulles and others concerning the nature of possible promises? They wrote, Dulles, Major General Lyman Lemesker,

1:04:21 and the Intelligence Group Assistant Director, Colonel Galloway, again intervened to assist the SS men. According to U.S. records, Galloway told the State Department Security Chief, Jack Neal, that the Wolf Group rendered services to the Allies and therefore they were under an obligation to not surrender them. But his claims on this point had begun to wear thin.

1:04:51 Considering the sworn testimony of four SS officers that he had made these promises had now been corroborated by affidavits, because they were basically denying they said it, by Max Hussman and Max Weibel, both of whom were widely reputed to be senior employees of the Swiss intelligence service that had been at the meeting. Jack Neal at State said he could smell the potential trouble of an increasingly messy affair.

1:05:20 After talking to Galloway at the Intelligence Group, Neal wrote a memo for file pinning responsibility for his actions on Dulles and the Intelligence Group. When wired back to Murphy at the U.S. Embassy in Berlin, that the State Department had concluded that allies owed an obligation to Wolf Dolman and the other SS that had been involved in Sunrise. Therefore, he said in a top secret cable.

1:05:48 Definite consideration should be given to favorable aspects of weighing any war crimes in which they've been charged. Wolf's role in organizing the extermination camps and in administering forced labor and the extensive use of the forced labor, regardless of his role in SS Sunrise, were not equal.

1:06:20 were more junior SS officers, but they face the same problem. The U.S. government transferred Wolf from an internment camp to considerably more comfortable lodging in a mental hospital and later claimed that he had had a mental breakdown, rendering him incompetent to stand trial. Wolf, nonetheless, became a favored informant of the U.S. prosecution at Nuremberg, you know, because that's what crazy people do.

1:06:50 contributing evidence to a number of cases against other SS officers to save his ass. British government prosecutors delivered the coup de grace to the efforts to bring Carl Wolfe to justice. They formally requested the U.S. turn over him and his aides to the British for a war criminal trial. But then Telford Taylor's prosecution group was running out of funds.

1:07:17 and under considerable pressure from the State Department to wrap up activities as quickly as possible because they didn't really want to prosecute anybody else. Taylor readily agreed to transfer Wolfe to the British custody, but the British did not try Wolfe. Instead, they severed his prosecution from that of the other generals, despite the fact that Wolfe's case was considerably more clear-cut and easy to prosecute.

1:07:43 They then kept Wolf in protective custody without bringing him to trial until Taylor's war crime unit had gone. In late 1949, the British brought Carl Wolf before a denazification board in Hamburg, a move that might have been fairly compared to charging an SS leader with a traffic violation. Wolf's Sunrise colleagues turned out in force to verify his denazification.

1:08:13 Those witnesses included Alan Dulles, Lyman Lemitsker, and General Terrence Airy. They each submitted an affidavit on his behalf. Dulles' senior aide, Jero von Jabernitz, testified in person as a defense witness. The board deliberately briefly determined that Carl Wolf in the dock

1:08:40 was in fact a well-known Nazi and SS leader, and then went on to conclude that the time Wolf had served in internment since the war had been punishment enough and he was free to walk away. 13 years later, the worldwide public attention to the Eichmann trial spurred German prosecutors to reopen the case on Karl Wolf and his crimes against humanity. But by that time, Alan Dulles had retired from the CIA in the wake of his failed Bay of Pigs.

1:09:10 and the rest of the Old Sunrise team seemed to prefer avoiding a public trial. German courts convicted Wolfe of complicity in the murder of 300,000 Jewish people and sentenced him to 15 years in prison, 15 years for 300,000. He served seven years before he was once again released. The path of Wolfe's aide, Eugene Dolman, followed to freedom remains murky.

1:09:35 But new light was shed on his case recently when some of the personal archives of military intelligence agents, John Valentin Grombach, found their way into public domain in the 1950s. The CIA hired Grombach's private intelligence network at a million dollars a year to perform a variety of espionage service in Western and Eastern Europe. But Grombach's relationship with the CIA went sour and he began compiling hostile,

1:10:05 intelligence reports on CIA agents that had a leak to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, Senator Joseph McCarthy, and other people that didn't like the CIA. Dahlman kept in contact with American intelligence after the war. Grombach wrote in a confidential memo to the FBI. Dahlman had his entry into Switzerland cleared by the CIA and had began to work for the CIA.

1:10:34 Oh, no kidding. Probably. Let's see. That's around the same time that Otto Skorzeny is working for the CIA. His work became especially important during the period when General Walter Bedell Smith was the director and Alan Dulles was the deputy director. In November 1952, at the time when Mr. Dulles was in Germany, the whole thing blew up. Grombach noted, German

1:11:03 press, reports brought to light a series of scandals involving former Nazi officials who favored a Soviet-backed proposal for a neutral Germany. Dolman's role in the affair is not completely clear to this day, but it was certain that he had some connections with the neutralists who were enjoying clandestine support from East German.

1:11:27 The scandal in turn produced reports of Dolman's association with both the CIA and MI6. Dulles was somewhat abashed by the latest fiasco, Grombeck wrote, and left Germany in haste. So he ends up working for the CIA. In time, the Swiss ended up deporting Dolman. Yeah, isn't it weird that he ends up in Switzerland, which is where Alan Dulles hang out all the time?

1:11:56 For abuse of his visitor status, no court ever tried Dolman for his role in any of the horrific activity that he was involved in. And on the basis of his memoir, he today enjoys the reputation of being a not-so-bad guy. Dolman's colleague and prison mate, Eugene Winner, who shared with Dolman the benefits of U.S. intelligence intervention, also appears to have avoided any war crime charges.

1:12:27 Common pattern of U.S. treatment of SS men involved in Sunrise negotiations was across the board. As for Walter Roth, he escaped from U.S. custody under this mysterious circumstances with the help of the Catholic Church and made his way. And he was also back financially bankrolled by U.S. intelligence.

1:12:53 Officially, the U.S., Britain, and the Soviet Union formally agreed at Potsdam during 1945 to a tough program of demilitarization, decentralization, and denazification of Germany. That basically didn't happen. The Wolfe and Horthy cases suggest that despite public promises, there was absolutely nothing done of real value in the denazification process. Instead, we just hit a bunch of them.

1:13:23 all over the world so there you have it remember sure can you remember when we were studying all these nazis and them coming to the united states there was one in particular that i actually found lecturing to he was he was into training the academy at the academy

1:14:05 Was he at, wasn't he the one that was at National War College, not out in the cab? I think it was National War College. That sounds right. And I can't remember. Yeah, I don't remember his name. Yeah. Honey, honey, we spent two and a half years tracing Nazis. Right. It's hard to keep them all straight. They're like roaches, man. As soon as you turn a corner.

1:14:35 There's another Nazi. There's another Nazi. Right. And they weren't, they played an actual in our government, not an inactive role. I mean, and this was, well, like we said all along, World War II never ended. It just changed. It went from an overt war to a covert war overnight. Amen. And, you know, because it is a continuing thing.

1:15:13 I'm just convinced. Well, this kind of drove home another nail in the coffin, if you will, of what we already knew that they were working on setting up the stay behind units before the war was even ended. And Operation Sunrise drives that home. If you read about Operation Sunrise and you know that in the immediate aftermath of that,

1:15:45 The, you know, taking of Reinhard Galen into Washington, D.C. and debriefing on where all of the networks is. Lyman Lemonsker's role in the use of Gladio, both in his Northwood paper and then later as the NATO commander. All of that stuff plays into this. And to see him front and center in the setting up of it.

1:16:12 And also, by the way, his position and the reason why he was available to attend these meetings was he's a two-star general at this point. He is the logistics chief for Eisenhower at the end of the war in Europe. So he was the guy that was shuffling off both.

1:16:40 While the war is going on and in the immediate aftermath of the war, he's the guy that was taking all of the excess war material, creating the weapon caches. He's the one that's disposing of all of the supplies. So he's the master of the key when it comes to logistical supply networks.

1:17:05 It's not coincidental that all of these, to include ones that had been in Nazi territories, end up with NATO-approved supplies. Because you know that they're not going to have NATO supplies in caches that were set up like in Ukraine or Romania. But they all end up with NATO supplies, thanks to Lyman Lemesker. He was the logistics chief in the aftermath.

1:17:31 at the end of World War II and in the aftermath of World War II as they're setting up Operation Gladio. So I was just flabbergasted. Anyway, anybody else got anything? Everybody else is just as stunned as I was when I read the book. I'm like, what? Yeah, they just.

1:18:02 set up all the rat lines, put them in places where people can just walk out the back door, hide them in an insane asylum, hide them in a hospital, and then poof, they're gone. What you got, Renee? I see ya. Yeah, okay. Yeah, this chapter really brought it home, kind of pulling all the facets together of banking, Vatican.

1:18:35 um, the, the whole kind of foundation and creation of this plan to spread around the world. You could really, I really felt it in this chapter of, um, you know, the whole operation Gladio CIA are, it's like the army for the international syndicate, but you've got to have all connections and all these different other angles. Um, and

1:19:03 shame on us because we totally this they did a number on the population of the world that we won the war and the propaganda you know was a big lie that um um was enabled this thing to move forward overtly yeah but not shame on us i mean we how would you know we didn't have mass communication back then you and again i keep saying that because

1:19:33 I sat for 30 years inside of an organization that I thought had the best interest of the American people at its heart. And when you sit in that organization under that pretext, it never crossed my mind, not on 9-11, not during any of the aftermath, never.

1:20:02 Not when Kosovo kicked off. Never in my wildest imaginations would I have ever thought two seconds, if anybody would have told me, I would have told them they were crazy, that my government would be going around the world overthrowing governments. I would have not believed it. I would have not believed that there's a secret network.

1:20:30 that creates terrorists to unleash on their own people. I would not have believed it. I would have looked into it, but I would have not believed whoever was telling me that. And so even the few people back in the day, like Morgenthau and people like that, that were screaming up and down that stuff needed to happen.

1:20:53 they they they're they're screaming into a void because they're never going to get a voice because they already owned the media so right right and then the banking i mean it was around this time right that the imf and the bis was created in well the bis the bis was set up after world war one in order to handle the reparations so that of world war one

1:21:23 That would be the first step. So they set up the mini UN called the League of Nations just to get the idea floated out there that we're going to have something like that. And they set up the Bank of International Settlements, which is basically the central bank of central banks. Under the guise that we have to have it, which they did not, this had reparations that happened for.

1:21:44 a century before that and you never needed a central bank but again you have to have these major catastrophic things in order to justify this because nobody would have stood for it so they set up the bank of international settlements post world war ii they set up the imf and the world bank because that's how they're going to commit economic warfare from there forward and they deal directly with the bank of international settlements as a result

1:22:16 And then the printing of the money thing. The printing of the money thing, I've been thinking a lot of this week. I think, I mean, I don't know how the rest of you feel, and I'm not good with the whole banking numbers process in my head. But I think this money printing situation the world is in, if we are able to stop this or get to the root of that, I think.

1:22:48 I mean, because if you cut off, if you pull the plug on this money printing thing, this whole banking thing, it's going to put everything to a halt. I mean, nobody's going to do jack for an international syndicate member if they're not getting paid. Correct. They're not going to do it as a favor. Correct. So it seems to me when people, when we all sit there and ponder, what is the root of this? How could we stop it? The money. It seems like.

1:23:16 That's it. The money. You're absolutely right. It's the money. And that's the reason why in the first hundred days of this Trump administration, he went after the money. USAID is a big source of the money. They're talking about the endowment, taxing the endowments, all of that stuff. They're going after the money all along.

1:23:56 i was a little distracted in that part of the chapter but um let it be said i i just like i want to know what that was and and you mentioned that there seemed to have been some discrepancy between you know this rumbaugh guy and some big wigs in the in the um oss slash cia effector i'm just like wondering can we identify the essential either bureaucratic cost

1:24:25 on the U.S. end, whether it be conflicts between military, conflicts between different factions of the Democratic Party, conflicts between intelligence and the military, and also on the European side, what is the basis of the difference between the PAN and the CIA, if we know that? Yeah, I'll look into that and try to come up with, I know what you're talking about.

1:24:54 But I'd have to do a little bit more thinking on it. But anyway, anybody else got anything? You wanted to say something about the recent post. Oh, yeah. So I was hoping Illini was going to be here. You guys are awesome. Let me just give you guys a pat on the back. Going out and tagging people and trying to get the word out.

1:25:29 obviously very humbled that you guys do this on a daily basis. And you're definitely getting the word out. I just saw someone else going to make a video about Operation Gladio, although we called it Project Gladio, which it's not. But whatever. I wish they'd get it right. That one of you guys tagged, what's his name? Steve Baker? Is that his name? I don't want to get his name wrong.

1:25:58 in a post. Let me see if I can find it real quick. He works for the blaze and evidently, um, the poor guy was caught up in January 6th. And so obviously, um, you guys wanted to, um, get the information of, uh, operation Gladio to him. And, um, you know, between him and Illini and a couple of others of you,

1:26:27 um he spent 45 minutes telling us why he didn't have time to look into operation gladio and um which as a line i appropriately um pointed out had you just talked to me for 45 minutes you would know everything you need to know

1:26:46 at least on the surface of what Operation Gladio is, but instead you're sitting here online telling us why you can't be bothered with it because you have more important things to do when you don't even know what it is. And again, I think for anybody that's involved in January 6th, if you understand the context of these false flags, it obviously is very important.

1:27:14 to that whole conversation it explains everything um but you know whatever and then one of the one of the other guys said something about um and i knew he was calling us weird that he just found it weird that um

1:27:36 that we would think that we knew more than an investigative journalist. Well, if you look at that guy's profile, the only PP he follows is Blaze. So he obviously is a puppet account for the Blaze, which I love, by the way. I don't have anything against the Blaze, but I made a smart ass comment back to him saying, yeah, I guess you guys would think it's weird that we just wanted to reach out and help you find out.

1:28:03 what's actually behind January 6th because you've obviously missed the big picture. But, you know, bad on us for trying to help. We'll just go back over here in our little corner and pretend like you don't exist. I didn't say that last part. But anyway, I just want to give you guys kudos for doing what you do because that's how the word gets out. And that's how we have ended up being mentioned. Not we personally, but.

1:28:31 Operation Gladio has been mentioned on the Tucker Carlson show, the Joe Rogan show. And that's the way it's done. And you guys do a great job doing it. So keep it up. I love it. All right. Anybody else? Yes. I watched your last two shows with Alpha this week. And you mentioned Cornelius Vander.

1:29:08 And I thought you were going to finish at Vanderbilt. But you said Cornelius Vanderstar. And the thing I was thinking right away was that in the 19th century, the early 20th century, we had these two big oligarch families, two big famous families that were involved in shipping. There were the Vanderbilts and the Astors. Yep. Okay. And both of them were involved in the China trade. Yep. And I think both of them.

1:29:36 We know the opium wars were going on. I think both of them were involved in shipping the opium into China. And to do that, if they were getting the opium out of Bengal, which was British at that time, they had to have the permission of the British, which probably basically means the permission of the Rothschilds. Now, I don't know for a fact that the Vanderbilts back then were involved in any really dark stuff.

1:30:04 But we know from the Q-drops and the paintings of the swimming pool at the bottom of Biltmore and so forth that there were children. The accusation is that there were children sacrificed there and so forth. And we know that Gloria Vanderbilt took a picture with her two kids. This is also in the Q-drops where there's a pagan or satanic altar behind her with somebody being sacrificed, right?

1:30:35 And then right after that, her husband died. OK, so the thought is that she was satanic and that she was basically that that picture was kind of a photograph saying, hey, you know, you can kill my kids. I mean, you can kill my husband if you if you promote my kids, you know. And then one of them, of course, became Anderson Cooper. So who was CIA? OK, so there's a connection between the intelligence, the satanic stuff, the Vanderbilt family. OK.

1:31:02 So then you start talking about the CD star guy. And the thing that hit me right away is the Latin word for star is Aster. Okay. Yeah. We've got Vanderbilt. We've got Vanderstar and we've got Aster, which means star. And they start talking about CD star and he's involved in the China trade. You know, he's coming out of Shanghai and all this.

1:31:31 Well, he wasn't involved in China trade per se. He was in the insurance industry. But he insured the trade. Right. And then he also has the ties to the CIA and all that. Correct. But it just struck me, because when you said Vanderstar, I was like, okay, I bet that's a cover identity. That's not his real name.

1:31:59 And then you said, no, he's a junior. His father was named that too. And I'm like, oh boy. Yeah. Is this a multi-generational cover story? So I don't, I would not say it's a cover story. What I would say is because of the naming traditions of these families that were involved, that, and I look, trust me, I look for the better part of two weeks to try to tie him because that was my initial thought.

1:32:28 thought of because just two years ago we went and toured all of their um we went to um um North Carolina we went to Newport Rhode Island we went into all of the um Vanderbilt houses um just because I wanted to see what they all look like um and whether I got that evil vibe or not there's definitely an evil vibe there guys um and so I tried to um because the naming of how they do their names

1:32:57 uses the middle name as like the maiden name of the mom or whatever. And so I'm still convinced there's a connection there. I've not been able to prove it though. So there's that, but I do want to mention since you were talking about the shipping Vanderbilt, although that's obviously a business that they were in.

1:33:25 The real shipping magnets in the opium trade were all located in India. The Sassoon's, the Tata's, they are the ones, and still today, those guys are multi, multi, multi-billionaire. Well, Sassoon basically is gone. But those companies, and there's one more, there were three.

1:33:53 that not only did they get rich doing the slave trade, but worked on behalf of British India, pumping all of the Indian opium into China. And that was primarily dominated by the Sassoons, Tadas, and that other family whose name's not coming to me. I just wrote a thread about them. But Cornelius, C.B. Starr,

1:34:22 insured those shipments and that's how he was making money as well. So they were all getting rich off of opium. Right. Yeah. It's a crazy story and something you don't find in any history book. Yeah. And it's, I mean, but just the conjunction of those three names, because I read that the Astor is, you know, the Astor is a German word and it ends A-S-T-O-R instead of A-S-T-E-R.

1:34:54 I read that the Astor name came from Star because they were basically a pagan family. And that, I mean, this isn't in the Wikipedia page or anything, but it's a theory that people, you know, have who follow these occult families. Yeah. And that, you know, the Astor name came from Star. And it's just because, you know, I think that somehow...

1:35:33 You couldn't have three names like that. CB star guy. He comes along as like his first job was in the, uh, the Pacific mail company, you know? So he's involved. I mean, he was originally involved in that before he had AIG. Right. And that was very notorious for how you spied on people back then. So there's that intel, that connection to intelligence too. Yes. And to just, you know, sailing the Pacific.

1:36:03 which all three families were involved in. And then there's this story about how he supported himself with odd jobs. And I'm starting to get really ambitious of anybody really big and rich who has that in their biography, that they started out working all these odd jobs and then they get really rich. But I don't know. We've seen so many of these tech billionaires today who came out of nowhere and...

1:36:33 yeah i call it the rags to riches story that i don't believe ever right i think they started that silicon valley they did not value influence out there i think it started generations ago yeah they did not i mean i think this is some kind of multi-generational thing where the the the three family's names didn't didn't get that way by accident it was correct yeah and and by the way um

1:37:03 One of the asters, I think it was John IV, if I remember, is one of the guys, one of the three major guys that was anti-Fed that went down on the Titanic. Or the Olympics. Yeah. Yeah, or whatever. But, yeah, he was killed. Right. Yeah. Right. And that was how they got the Fed and the direct election senators in World War I. Yep. So, yeah.

1:37:33 All right. Anybody else got anything else before we close up shop today? I wouldn't mind piggybacking off what you guys were just talking about with the Astor family and meaning star. If anybody ever wants to go down a crazy, do a crazy dig rabbit hole. I was looking into the Mars company and it seems there's family connections. Again, family names, history, lineage, genealogy.

1:38:04 That goes back to an Italian family, royal family, with an Italian name that is similar to Candida, a.k.a. Candy. So I do see the conversion and converting of names in these nefarious bloodlines. But it seemed to be that...

1:38:32 name candy is derived from this royal family uh lineage in italy candida the house of candy i don't know whatever but um and these people are linked to the mars uh uh candy line interesting enough okay i just wanted to throw that in okay there you go um all right anybody else all right thanks for being here

1:39:02 I do have a couple of things that I have tagged. I want to get done this weekend. I don't know if I'm going to just pre-record it and play it or exactly how I'm going to do it. But I found a couple. They're not anything to do. I mean, they're obviously Gladio related, but they're not anything to do with the book. And we'll probably have the book finished the first couple of days of next week.

1:39:30 I do want to caution everybody that starting on Thursday, I will be traveling for a month and we are going to do book reviews. But as you know, in the past, when I travel, depending on whether or not it's a travel day, it can be early or it can be late. We're just going to have to be very flexible on when I do these shows. I am purposely

1:39:58 I'm not just traveling for fun this time. I am going to a very dear friend of mine's change of command ceremony at Fort Hood. He's taking over the third ASOG, the Aviation Special Operations Group. And I am just totally thrilled. I've been a mentor of his for the last 20 years. Awesome guy.

1:40:19 and several of my friends are going to be out there so there's a chance where there will be three or four days where i don't do any shows because i'm not going to waste a minute of my time with them um on anything else not that you guys are a waste that didn't come out right but

1:40:34 I want to spend the time. I only get to see them once every couple of years. So definitely want to spend the time with them. And then I'll be with my daughter, who's going to be working some of the time. So I will have time to do some shows while we're out there in Austin. And then we'll head back. So just hang with us. And I will let you know probably on Monday what our next book is going to be. So thanks, everybody, for being here. Appreciate it. Take care.

1:41:02 Oh, and have a nice weekend. I know. See you guys later. Okay. Bye. Take care, everyone.

Entities here

Claims made here

Allen Dulles member_of Office of Strategic Services documented ▶ 1:52

“provided clearances for senior German bankers and industrialists seeking permission to remain active in Germany post-war economy. Now, keep in mind, these are the same bankers and industrialists that …”

Allen Dulles covered_up Oswald Rössl documented ▶ 3:22

“who remained diehard Nazi enthusiast. Well, of course, none of these guys did because the Nazis lost. In a striking memo to Washington in late 1944, Dulles erroneously reported that, with a few notabl…”

Allen Dulles covered_up Herbert Göring documented ▶ 3:22

Allen Dulles covered_up Karl Goetz documented ▶ 3:22

Oswald Rössl member_of Deutsche Bank documented ▶ 3:50

“L-O-E, excuse me, R-O-E-S-S-L-O-E of the Deutsche Bank, Karl Goetz of the Dresdner Bank and the Krupp Board and other key Nazi industrialists like Herbert Goering, Hermann Goering's brother, had been …”

Karl Goetz member_of Dresdner Bank documented ▶ 3:50

Herbert Göring member_of Krupp documented ▶ 3:50

John Foster Dulles founded Bank for International Settlements book_quoted ▶ 5:51

“in order to save the Nazis and their corporate benefactors. The Dulles family had played an important role in the bank from its inception. So it was not surprising that Alan Dulles would turn to his c…”

Eleanor Dulles member_of U.S. State Department book_quoted ▶ 6:23

“and most enthusiastic supporter was his sister, Eleanor Lansing Dulles. And remember, Eleanor is the person that was in charge of the State Department office when her brother becomes Secretary of Stat…”

Thomas McKittrick headed Bank for International Settlements documented ▶ 6:50

“Both Allen and John Foster Dulles sat on the boards of New York and London affiliates of European companies led by men on the BIS board of directors. And an American with a long social and business ti…”

Allen Dulles recruited Roger Auboyneau documented ▶ 7:19

“At least two senior Bank of International Settlement officers, McKittrick and Roger Auboyne, worked for Dulles as underground contract agents. McKittrick was agent number 644 on Dulles' payroll. So le…”

Allen Dulles recruited Thomas McKittrick documented ▶ 7:19

Roger Auboyneau headed Bank for International Settlements documented ▶ 8:17

“the general manager at the bank of international settlements was agent number 651 code name general manager b and dallas's messages back to oss headquarters notwithstanding the fact that mckittrick wa…”

Bank for International Settlements laundered_money_for Nazi Party documented ▶ 9:12

“During McKittrick's presidency, the BIS cooperated with the German Rights Bank efforts to launder all of the gold stolen from everybody that they imprisoned. The German finance minister, Walther Funk,…”

Walther Funk member_of Bank for International Settlements documented ▶ 9:12

Allen Dulles covered_up Karl Blessing book_quoted ▶ 17:21

“But as we know, Dulles and his brother were instrumental in setting these companies up to begin with. Dulles passed on McKittrick's evaluation of German bankers with only minimal checking. In the summ…”

Allen Dulles appointed Karl Blessing book_quoted ▶ 19:14

“Carl Blessing cultivated a reputation after the war as an anti-Nazi who had once resigned a seat on a board of a powerful multinational company, Unilever, rather than cooperate with SS efforts to take…”

Karl Blessing member_of Nazi Party documented ▶ 21:03

“and then he joined the Nazi party in 1937. Slott had appointed him the youngest full director of the rights bank in the entire history of the bank. He engineered Carl Blessing's appointment to several…”

Karl Blessing member_of Continental Oil documented ▶ 25:39

“Karl Blessing exercised special responsibility for the company's financial affairs and its relation with the German banks. He could hardly have been ignorant to the character of the company that he wa…”

Karl Blessing member_of Unilever documented ▶ 27:02

“for Karl Blessing from the summer of 1945 as he continued to climb the corporate structure in what was going to be the new Germany. Dulles' de facto clearance became instrumental in Blessing's return …”

Karl Blessing member_of IG Farben documented ▶ 28:59

“The members of the corporate board of IG Farben was eventually tried and convicted for procuring slave labor for construction of IG Farben's oil facilities. Yet Blessing managed to escape any of that,…”

U.S. State Department covered_up Hjalmar Schacht book_quoted ▶ 30:02

“was prosecuting Blessing's longtime mentor, Heimer Slats. For example, the legal advisor's office at the State Department was quietly helping the defense team clear him. In the heart of the prosecutio…”

Hjalmar Schacht member_of Reichsbank documented ▶ 30:32

“in the attack on Jewish people. Schlatt also served the Nazi regime as a rights bank director and minister of economics. He had participated in the Nazi conspiracy to use slave labor. Meanwhile, the S…”

Allen Dulles recruited Gheorghe Tătărescu book_quoted ▶ 32:36

“engaged another Dulles agent, the former Axis Romanian ambassador, Gagori Gafencu, to write memoirs that stressed that Germany had been drawn into the war against its will and that choices of people l…”

William J. Donovan opposed Hjalmar Schacht documented ▶ 33:06

“was still split over the issue of whether to bring him to trial. The U.S. hardliners favored prosecution, as did Jackson, but Jackson's most senior deputy, former SS chief William Donovan, strongly op…”

William J. Donovan resigned Robert H. Jackson documented ▶ 33:31

“and that a tough cross-examination of him on the witness stand would undermine the stability of Germany and our national security. Jackson, however, found himself hemmed in by his commitments to Franc…”

Karl Blessing did_business_with Bank for International Settlements documented ▶ 37:23

“Those traits enabled him to prosper as a young executive under Hitler, his tolerance of all of this. They brought him to Slat's attention and put him in contact with that entire network. His counterpa…”

Allen Dulles protected Karl Blessing host_asserted ▶ 37:53

“would once again turn to Karl Blessing. So not only do they save him, Allen Dulles, from going to Nuremberg, he is then thrust into the center of what's going to happen to Germany post-war. Just as wi…”

Miklós Horthy headed Hungary documented ▶ 40:46

“destruction of property enforcing Czech citizens into the Hungarian army, according to U.S. diplomatic report. The Czechoslovakians also brought charges against Horthy, but Horthy, as will be seen, wa…”

Robert Murphy sought_approval_for Miklós Horthy documented ▶ 42:47

“After his arrival, U.S. political advisor Murphy sought Washington's approval for Horthy's release. Legal advisors Green and Hackworth agreed, provided the Soviet Union did not formally object. The So…”

Robert H. Jackson promised Miklós Horthy documented ▶ 43:45

“So according to the U.S. Embassy reports of the day, because many felt a trial would undermine the state's future. The chief U.S. prosecutor at Nuremberg, Robert Jackson, promised Horthy that if he co…”

Allen Dulles protected Eugen Dollmann documented ▶ 48:50

“Russia's going to come across and kill all of you, we'll help you. Though Dulles was later to deny it, he extended a de facto protection to Karl Wolf and at least two of his assistants, Eugene Dahlman…”

Allen Dulles protected Karl Wolff documented ▶ 48:50

Allen Dulles protected Walter Rauff speculative ▶ 49:20

“Circumstantial evidence links Dulles to the escape of another Wolf assistant, Walter Roth, whose rise through the SS ranks had been helped by his use of the gas trucks to murder people as a mobile dea…”

Eugen Dollmann participated_in Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 56:59

“So here's what was found in a document. The records of the former OSS provide proof that Eugene O'Dolman, aide to General Wolfe, and former SS Fuhrer, as well as former SS Eugene Winner, also connecte…”

Lyman Lemnitzer participated_in Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 57:26

“Mr. Allen Dulles, formerly of OSS and later SSU, a short-lived iteration of OSS, initiated the negotiations, has been contacted here and confirms the foregoing. Major General Lyman Lemesker, who also …”

Allen Dulles initiated Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 57:26

Lyman Lemnitzer issued Operation Northwoods host_asserted ▶ 58:54

“and later issues Operation Northwood that recommends domestic terror attacks in the United States camouflaged as Castro's army to kill Americans in order to justify a full-scale army invasion of Cuba.…”

Lyman Lemnitzer headed Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 59:21

“ends up at NATO headquarters who runs Operation Gladio at the very same time JFK is assassinated. He was at the first planning meeting of Operation Gladio. That's what this book just said. My mind was…”

Walter Rauff escaped_to Chile documented ▶ 1:01:00

“where Colony Dignity is that had lots of other Nazis there. He goes on to say there was a Catholic priest that helped me go to Rome, another rat line from the prison at Rimney to Rome and on to Chile.…”

Catholic Church helped Walter Rauff documented ▶ 1:01:30

“And with the help of the Catholic Church, my family was able to come with me. Isn't that nice, that family togetherness? Reunited with his family, he went to Damascus. And from there, to South America…”

Karl Wolff participated_in Operation Sunrise documented ▶ 1:03:28

“appeal for a complete amnesty from the war crimes prosecution. SS General Carl Wolf claims that in connection with Operation Sunrise leading to the surrender of German forces in Italy, that that had b…”

Colonel Galloway intervened_for Karl Wolff documented ▶ 1:04:21

“and the Intelligence Group Assistant Director, Colonel Galloway, again intervened to assist the SS men. According to U.S. records, Galloway told the State Department Security Chief, Jack Neal, that th…”

Karl Wolff member_of U.S. Secret Service host_asserted ▶ 1:05:48

“Definite consideration should be given to favorable aspects of weighing any war crimes in which they've been charged. Wolf's role in organizing the extermination camps and in administering forced labo…”

United States government recruited Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:06:20

“were more junior SS officers, but they face the same problem. The U.S. government transferred Wolf from an internment camp to considerably more comfortable lodging in a mental hospital and later claim…”

United Kingdom covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:07:17

“and under considerable pressure from the State Department to wrap up activities as quickly as possible because they didn't really want to prosecute anybody else. Taylor readily agreed to transfer Wolf…”

Karl Wolff located_in Hamburg host_asserted ▶ 1:07:43

“They then kept Wolf in protective custody without bringing him to trial until Taylor's war crime unit had gone. In late 1949, the British brought Carl Wolf before a denazification board in Hamburg, a …”

Lyman Lemnitzer covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:08:13

“Those witnesses included Alan Dulles, Lyman Lemitsker, and General Terrence Airy. They each submitted an affidavit on his behalf. Dulles' senior aide, Jero von Jabernitz, testified in person as a defe…”

Allen Dulles covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:08:13

Terence Airey covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:08:13

Jero von Jabernitz covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:08:13

Allen Dulles member_of CIA host_asserted ▶ 1:08:40

“was in fact a well-known Nazi and SS leader, and then went on to conclude that the time Wolf had served in internment since the war had been punishment enough and he was free to walk away. 13 years la…”

Germany covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:09:10

“and the rest of the Old Sunrise team seemed to prefer avoiding a public trial. German courts convicted Wolfe of complicity in the murder of 300,000 Jewish people and sentenced him to 15 years in priso…”

CIA recruited John Grombach host_asserted ▶ 1:09:35

“But new light was shed on his case recently when some of the personal archives of military intelligence agents, John Valentin Grombach, found their way into public domain in the 1950s. The CIA hired G…”

CIA recruited Eugen Dollmann host_asserted ▶ 1:10:05

“intelligence reports on CIA agents that had a leak to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, Senator Joseph McCarthy, and other people that didn't like the CIA. Dahlman kept in contact with American intelligen…”

Allen Dulles headed CIA host_asserted ▶ 1:10:34

“Oh, no kidding. Probably. Let's see. That's around the same time that Otto Skorzeny is working for the CIA. His work became especially important during the period when General Walter Bedell Smith was …”

Walter Bedell Smith headed CIA host_asserted ▶ 1:10:34

Otto Skorzeny member_of CIA host_asserted ▶ 1:10:34

Switzerland removed_from_power Eugen Dollmann host_asserted ▶ 1:11:27

“The scandal in turn produced reports of Dolman's association with both the CIA and MI6. Dulles was somewhat abashed by the latest fiasco, Grombeck wrote, and left Germany in haste. So he ends up worki…”

United States government funded Walter Rauff host_asserted ▶ 1:12:27

“Common pattern of U.S. treatment of SS men involved in Sunrise negotiations was across the board. As for Walter Roth, he escaped from U.S. custody under this mysterious circumstances with the help of …”

Catholic Church covered_up Walter Rauff host_asserted ▶ 1:12:27

United States government covered_up Karl Wolff host_asserted ▶ 1:12:53

“Officially, the U.S., Britain, and the Soviet Union formally agreed at Potsdam during 1945 to a tough program of demilitarization, decentralization, and denazification of Germany. That basically didn'…”

Lyman Lemnitzer member_of NATO host_asserted ▶ 1:15:45

“The, you know, taking of Reinhard Galen into Washington, D.C. and debriefing on where all of the networks is. Lyman Lemonsker's role in the use of Gladio, both in his Northwood paper and then later as…”

Reinhard Gehlen moved_to Washington, D.C. host_asserted ▶ 1:15:45

Lyman Lemnitzer funded Operation Gladio host_asserted ▶ 1:17:05

“It's not coincidental that all of these, to include ones that had been in Nazi territories, end up with NATO-approved supplies. Because you know that they're not going to have NATO supplies in caches …”

Astor family trafficked China speculative ▶ 1:29:36

“We know the opium wars were going on. I think both of them were involved in shipping the opium into China. And to do that, if they were getting the opium out of Bengal, which was British at that time,…”

Vanderbilt family trafficked China speculative ▶ 1:29:36

Anderson Cooper member_of Vanderbilt family host_asserted ▶ 1:30:35

“And then right after that, her husband died. OK, so the thought is that she was satanic and that she was basically that that picture was kind of a photograph saying, hey, you know, you can kill my kid…”

Gloria Vanderbilt married Vanderbilt family speculative ▶ 1:30:35

Cornelius Vanderbilt Starr did_business_with China host_asserted ▶ 1:33:53

“that not only did they get rich doing the slave trade, but worked on behalf of British India, pumping all of the Indian opium into China. And that was primarily dominated by the Sassoons, Tadas, and t…”

Sassoon Family trafficked China host_asserted ▶ 1:33:53

Tata Family trafficked China host_asserted ▶ 1:33:53

Cornelius Vanderbilt Starr member_of Pacific Mail Steamship Company host_asserted ▶ 1:35:33

“You couldn't have three names like that. CB star guy. He comes along as like his first job was in the, uh, the Pacific mail company, you know? So he's involved. I mean, he was originally involved in t…”

John Jacob Astor died_in Sinking of the Titanic host_asserted ▶ 1:37:03

“One of the asters, I think it was John IV, if I remember, is one of the guys, one of the three major guys that was anti-Fed that went down on the Titanic. Or the Olympics. Yeah. Yeah, or whatever. But…”

Mars, Inc. relationship_with House of Candida speculative ▶ 1:37:33

“All right. Anybody else got anything else before we close up shop today? I wouldn't mind piggybacking off what you guys were just talking about with the Astor family and meaning star. If anybody ever …”